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Ski Hill Courses....be honest
- Thread starter optidiscic
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 2,692
oh, you live in wyoming. :doh:
let me know how it is.
let me know how it is.
I have played on 2 ski slope DGCs and both were on beginner slopes. Both made very good use of the natural terrain, forest, trees, etc. There were only a couple big downhill shots and they required you keep your disc under control or you were in trouble. Putting also was very challenging with the slope, wind, water, etc.
I think there should be more.
I think there should be more.
I've played a handful of ski hill courses, and it really depends on the design. I wouldn't want to play that type of course all the time by any means, but I think it's a lot of fun every once in a while to really test how well you can deal with the wind and elevation.
adh56
Eagle Member
I agree with everyone that says it's all about the course design. I love courses in the woods but bad design = bad course
NothinButChing
* Ace Member *
only played ski hill once up at Solitude here in Utah def want to go again this summer when it warms up (if ever!) but there are down sides to these courses
Jackson Hole's 10 hole course on the ski slope was pretty 'meh.' It was good and everything, but not very inspired. After reading about many ski slope courses and seeing that they are mostly the same (wide open with extreme elevation), I can see how you don't like them. Ski Sunrise in Wrightwood is the exception to the rule. Los Angeles wins again.
Hole In Four
Newbie
Solitude, Utah
I've played quite a few courses in Utah, and Solitude is definitely one of my favorites. It's a different experience because many holes have severe elevation changes, which changes the way you throw and the discs you have to throw. It's much more challenging to me (which could be a positive or negative), and it's quite a hike, but Solitude is an extremely well designed course. I guess a downside is you often get discs stuck 200 feet up in a tree (so bring a slingshot!) But I absolutely love playing ski courses. (even though most of my comment was downsides...:doh:
I've played quite a few courses in Utah, and Solitude is definitely one of my favorites. It's a different experience because many holes have severe elevation changes, which changes the way you throw and the discs you have to throw. It's much more challenging to me (which could be a positive or negative), and it's quite a hike, but Solitude is an extremely well designed course. I guess a downside is you often get discs stuck 200 feet up in a tree (so bring a slingshot!) But I absolutely love playing ski courses. (even though most of my comment was downsides...:doh:
the_lung
Eagle Member
The issue is that designing a good state park or town park disc golf course is tough, and designing a good ski hill course is even more of a challenge.
Dan Doyle, father of the world class Warwick complex, would surely testify to this. He'd be the first one to admit that he's learned a great deal about ski hill course design and the results show when you compare the evolution from his initial Campgaw layout and then the re-designed layouts, to the two courses at Sugarbush, to the new courses at Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania.
I've now played a lot of ski hill courses over the last decade:
From playing all these courses, I've noticed the following things about ski hill course design:
1) On flat ground, the course needs to basically start and end near the parking lot and the flow can go pretty much anywhere. On a ski hill, there are some very limiting constraints. Severe elevation changes, fairways on ski trails, lodges and other ski area facilities, etc. sometimes dictate the available options. The last thing you want is to get to the bottom too early and then have to play back uphill for a few holes before finishing. An early incarnation of Campgaw had players back at the base after hole 13, and then you had to climb back to the top of the mountain to play holes 14-18, which was just annoying.
2) Holes should not play directly uphill. It's too taxing to climb straight up the fallline and rarely results in an interesting hole. Holes which 'tack' their way cross hill and up are usually far more interesting holes and easier to walk as well.
3) Gravity is b***h and will do strange things to your disc, especially when combined with mountain winds. Longer holes and severe downhill holes need to have wider fairways and LARGE 'bail out' zones where a player can choose to throw a safe shot if he desires. Course designers should not count on disc golfers knowing to play it safe and should factor in that poor shots are going to result in lost discs which is no fun, and playing with a 'shag bag' of old discs isn't really a preferred option. Even though these courses are typically on private land with fewer golfers, safety should be considered as well and tees not put where a stray disc from another hole might land.
4) Throwing straight down the ski trail is fun, but soon gets repetitive and possibly even boring. I have found that the best holes at ski hill courses are the ones which play through woods and have nothing to do with the ski trails. I think some of the best holes at Timber Ridge were the wooded holes. I like the Base course at Sugarbush far better than the Peak course for this same reason. In the same manner, the back nine at IUP College Lodge is vastly better than the front nine, imo.
5) Holes and/or landing areas absolutely cannot be blind. Because of the aforementioned effects of gravity and wind it is absolutely critical that golfers are able to see where their shots are going to end up.
6) While ski hill courses are often strenuous and I wouldn't want to play one every time I wish to go disc golfing, I know that it's healthy exercise and don't mind the occasional foray. I am overweight by some 50+ lbs. and usually feel like garbage while playing ski hill courses not to mention the day after, but I know it's good for me.
7) I agree with some of your points, optidiscic but I fall well short of saying that I really don't care for them. With the majestic views and scenery of these courses, being able to watch the full flight of your disc, taking advantage of severe elevation changes and being able to throw a disc 500+ feet, there is just no substitute. An 'okay' design on a ski hill course and the experience one gets there almost always trumps that of a good design on a town park course.
Dan Doyle, father of the world class Warwick complex, would surely testify to this. He'd be the first one to admit that he's learned a great deal about ski hill course design and the results show when you compare the evolution from his initial Campgaw layout and then the re-designed layouts, to the two courses at Sugarbush, to the new courses at Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania.
I've now played a lot of ski hill courses over the last decade:
- IUP College Lodge
- Snowbowl at the 2003 Pro Worlds in Arizona
- Campgaw, NJ
- Wisp Resort in western Maryland
- two Sugarbush, VT courses
- Timber Ridge at Pro/Am Worlds 2008 in Michigan
- J. Gary's masterpiece at Seven Springs in western PA
- two Blue Mountain courses
From playing all these courses, I've noticed the following things about ski hill course design:
1) On flat ground, the course needs to basically start and end near the parking lot and the flow can go pretty much anywhere. On a ski hill, there are some very limiting constraints. Severe elevation changes, fairways on ski trails, lodges and other ski area facilities, etc. sometimes dictate the available options. The last thing you want is to get to the bottom too early and then have to play back uphill for a few holes before finishing. An early incarnation of Campgaw had players back at the base after hole 13, and then you had to climb back to the top of the mountain to play holes 14-18, which was just annoying.
2) Holes should not play directly uphill. It's too taxing to climb straight up the fallline and rarely results in an interesting hole. Holes which 'tack' their way cross hill and up are usually far more interesting holes and easier to walk as well.
3) Gravity is b***h and will do strange things to your disc, especially when combined with mountain winds. Longer holes and severe downhill holes need to have wider fairways and LARGE 'bail out' zones where a player can choose to throw a safe shot if he desires. Course designers should not count on disc golfers knowing to play it safe and should factor in that poor shots are going to result in lost discs which is no fun, and playing with a 'shag bag' of old discs isn't really a preferred option. Even though these courses are typically on private land with fewer golfers, safety should be considered as well and tees not put where a stray disc from another hole might land.
4) Throwing straight down the ski trail is fun, but soon gets repetitive and possibly even boring. I have found that the best holes at ski hill courses are the ones which play through woods and have nothing to do with the ski trails. I think some of the best holes at Timber Ridge were the wooded holes. I like the Base course at Sugarbush far better than the Peak course for this same reason. In the same manner, the back nine at IUP College Lodge is vastly better than the front nine, imo.
5) Holes and/or landing areas absolutely cannot be blind. Because of the aforementioned effects of gravity and wind it is absolutely critical that golfers are able to see where their shots are going to end up.
6) While ski hill courses are often strenuous and I wouldn't want to play one every time I wish to go disc golfing, I know that it's healthy exercise and don't mind the occasional foray. I am overweight by some 50+ lbs. and usually feel like garbage while playing ski hill courses not to mention the day after, but I know it's good for me.
7) I agree with some of your points, optidiscic but I fall well short of saying that I really don't care for them. With the majestic views and scenery of these courses, being able to watch the full flight of your disc, taking advantage of severe elevation changes and being able to throw a disc 500+ feet, there is just no substitute. An 'okay' design on a ski hill course and the experience one gets there almost always trumps that of a good design on a town park course.
iloqutiss1
Par Member
Winter Park is my personal favorite course and it is a "ski hill" type of course but the ski hill is only part of the equation there and that's why its so good. I would agree with others here that if the focus of the course is up and down wide open ski runs it would suck after a couple of holes.
I've played: Targhee, Jackson, Canyons, Solitude, and Tamarack.
I have to question someone who says they don't like ski hill courses as such a general statement. That is like playing one or two park courses and saying "I don't like park courses." There are a lot of park courses I don't like but a lot that are awesome. As you play more ski courses you'll find that each course is unique. Some are wide open, others are real technical, and there are some that have a good mix of both.
Ski resorts are like others, they can be good or bad, but they typically have the added bonus of awesome atmosphere!!!!!!!!! Plus new challenges you don't get at most courses.
I have to question someone who says they don't like ski hill courses as such a general statement. That is like playing one or two park courses and saying "I don't like park courses." There are a lot of park courses I don't like but a lot that are awesome. As you play more ski courses you'll find that each course is unique. Some are wide open, others are real technical, and there are some that have a good mix of both.
Ski resorts are like others, they can be good or bad, but they typically have the added bonus of awesome atmosphere!!!!!!!!! Plus new challenges you don't get at most courses.
I love Mountain Golf! I have two Ski area courses in my favorites, Sunrise (now Sky High) in So Cal and The Canyons in Park City, Utah. These courses both exemplify what (Western) mountain golf should be. Not all uphill nor downhill, but with traversing shots and variety.
I have also played on cross county ski courses like Standing Rocks and Tower Ridge. Personally, I like em all. Probably because it seems like I have the place to myself and I feel connected with nature - two things that drew me to this sport in the first place.
I would have to disagree with OP on one point. It has been my experience that discs are much more stable at altitude. I can throw my super flippy roller disc at altitude and if I can even get it to turn over it still ends up crashing left as hard as a max weight Firebird. Knowing how discs fly at altitude is important for maximum enjoyment.
I have also played on cross county ski courses like Standing Rocks and Tower Ridge. Personally, I like em all. Probably because it seems like I have the place to myself and I feel connected with nature - two things that drew me to this sport in the first place.
I would have to disagree with OP on one point. It has been my experience that discs are much more stable at altitude. I can throw my super flippy roller disc at altitude and if I can even get it to turn over it still ends up crashing left as hard as a max weight Firebird. Knowing how discs fly at altitude is important for maximum enjoyment.
MellowRob
Newbie
Ski Hill courses by their very description imply significant elevation change, and usually in the downward direction. There is also the implication of wooded alpine surroundings. Sounds like the ultimate change of pace to the vast majority of courses I play, which is why I love playing a summer ski slope course. I have only played 2, Solitude and The Canyons, and both are significantly different in character.
Solitude uses a lift on roughly half the days of the week to get you to the top. Very Cool. Otherwise you hump it up over 1000' of vertical with your gear. Then they use moderate elevation drops to work your way down the mountain, with a few sidehills and uphills mixed in. It is a top to bottom course, which I love. Sure, you might release too high, and end up deep in the rough, or high in a tree. Prepare yourself for that before you get there, or don't go. I have lost about 10 discs there over about 10 or so times played. But when I finally pured a long perfect S turn down the 1200'+ Hole18, and landed in the grass across the road at the bottom, the feeling was amazing for this flatland distance thrower of around 350'. Accuracy and extreme distance realized, finally. While the discs IMO feel more overstable at altitude, throwing downward with the slope at a 25-30 degree angle brings the flippiness quickly back in view. Toss in some wind gusts, and you have one complicated equation that you can't match on a flat or rolling course. Also, the rubber teepads there are nice temporary pads, and come out quick too.
The Canyons is an odd course in my mind, more high alpine course than ski slope, because you ride up and then ride down. Even though I liked the course, I felt like my experience was cheapened because they didn't let me have fun with all of that elevation drop I saw from the Gondola. Oh well, one day maybe...
Overall, the experience of playing a ski hill course is so unique, that I will never shy away from playing one if given the opportunity.
Solitude uses a lift on roughly half the days of the week to get you to the top. Very Cool. Otherwise you hump it up over 1000' of vertical with your gear. Then they use moderate elevation drops to work your way down the mountain, with a few sidehills and uphills mixed in. It is a top to bottom course, which I love. Sure, you might release too high, and end up deep in the rough, or high in a tree. Prepare yourself for that before you get there, or don't go. I have lost about 10 discs there over about 10 or so times played. But when I finally pured a long perfect S turn down the 1200'+ Hole18, and landed in the grass across the road at the bottom, the feeling was amazing for this flatland distance thrower of around 350'. Accuracy and extreme distance realized, finally. While the discs IMO feel more overstable at altitude, throwing downward with the slope at a 25-30 degree angle brings the flippiness quickly back in view. Toss in some wind gusts, and you have one complicated equation that you can't match on a flat or rolling course. Also, the rubber teepads there are nice temporary pads, and come out quick too.
The Canyons is an odd course in my mind, more high alpine course than ski slope, because you ride up and then ride down. Even though I liked the course, I felt like my experience was cheapened because they didn't let me have fun with all of that elevation drop I saw from the Gondola. Oh well, one day maybe...
Overall, the experience of playing a ski hill course is so unique, that I will never shy away from playing one if given the opportunity.
I'm the OP The cost of lift cost of lost plastic. Seasonal aspect and often uncared for high grass. Fear of losing discs and subsequent conservative play. Excessive wind and gravity acting to make firebirds flippy. So many gripes. Just not my cup of tea. I try to like these courses but I'm 0 for 4 thus far
i dont like when the course uses the ski trails as fairways
