Snap, crackle, & pop: smooth vs. jerks in form

[Brychanus]

After a lot of form work and reading older posts on these forums, I thought it could be interesting to make thread to centralize some talk about smooth & jerk forces and their tradeoffs (esp. power, accuracy, wear & tear, injury) in form.

As I've been developing, I'm surprised at how much developing my form has felt like a synthesis of dance and karate. In both, I had to learn how to isolate and then synthesize key movements while developing balance. Learning the DG BH feels a lot like using the swing-like dynamics I learned in the waltz plus slinging a disc through a singular, high-force "hit" point like in karate. The smoother the form gets, the more my accuracy and effortless power improve.

But these thoughts led me back to wondering about some "jerk" dynamics in amateur and pro form - sudden, apparently violent movements. The one I think about most often is Drew Gibson's plant knee snap in his BH drives and twisted up lumbar behind his brace. It looks obviously bad for his body in the long run and I am surprised he hasn't been hurt more often (I assume his muscle mass/flexibility/fitness plays a big part). Yet he also throws incredibly consistent shots a very long way.

As has been mentioned, Tiger Woods also has had very violent knee action, with a significant injury history to boot.

So a few disc-ussion q's:

-Do all "jerk" forces raise risk of injury (I'm keeping in mind I might not be using this word the way physics does, interested in comments there too)?

-Do people like Drew G. get more power out of his knee snap than he would have without it? Otherwise, are there power/accuracy/injury risk tradeoffs to be aware of?

-Other favorite examples of common or rare "jerk" forces in amateur or pro form?

 

[Dingus]

A "jerk" is just a sudden acceleration. It could be a change in linear acceleration or an angular one.

First thing first. There is NEVER an advantage to a sudden vs gradual change in acceleration. The only thing that matters when throwing discs is the velocity at the point of release. If you achieve that via rapid violent acceleration it is exactly the same as a smooth gradual acceleration.

Jerks aren't always bad for you, only when the sudden acceleration goes against the way your joint or muscle is designed. If you have a rapid linear acceleration that stretches out your tendons, beyond their elasticity, you are headed for tendinitis. If you have sudden changes in angular acceleration against your knee in a twisting vector you will have knee issues. Compare that to the sudden angular acceleration of the hit. Your wrist usually feels fine because the angular acceleration goes with the natural movement of the wrist.

Aside from injury, the problem with jerky form is that you are introducing points of failure. If you delay your acceleration until the last millisecond of the hit, you are going to rely on incredible grip strength to prevent early release. Plying in the rain will make it nearly impossible. If you have jerky bottom half form you will be susceptible to traction issues to maintain connection with the ground.

I think the hardest thing about "jerks" in form is that it feels more powerful when it is not. All of the angular force generated needs to be contained by other muscles, meaning it feel like you are putting a ton of force on the disc when in reality you are just putting a lot of force into counteracting your form issues.

 

[Dingus]

I neglected to mention the supposed benefits to jerky form. It is possible you can load your tendons to greater effect by using the force generated via sudden acceleration. You had better have perfect timing to actually pull that off in a way that provides better distance vs smooth form.

 

[Tripper]

Snap, crackle, pop are the sounds I hear as I stand up to get ready to tee off.

 

[BillFleming]

Someone described it to me like racing.

Consider drag racing....two cars lined up.
Car 1: "jerks" at the starting line
Car 2: quickly, but smoothly accelerates

What is the result?
Car 1's front end lifts off the ground and goes slightly out of control. Possibly flip's over or goes wildly off to the side.
Car 2 stays fully on the ground and heads straight down the lane towards the finish line.

Who wins?
Most likely car 2.....car 1 might be fun to watch though.

 

[Skervoy]

People can do what they want as far as I care but I will rather pursue smoothness and hope that improves the chance of a long time doing sports in general. Busted knees, backs, elbows etc are not fun nor good for longevity of doing sports.


Doubt there is that much difference in what can actually be done on the course, out there consistency is the key and violent forms can most definietly be consistent.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Definitely worth putting some parameters around the type of redirection (jerking) that we're describing. There are increasing levels of tendon bounce the deeper you load the disc to center chest when the disc starts to accelerate, depending on a ton of factors. But there is also generically adding a hitch / lag into your motion that "feels" powerful.

Personally I see numerous bad things in my results when there is a tendon bounce at the top of the backswing (specifically I have to change my disc angle to hold the disc through that motion).

A jerky extension of the arm to the ejection point will see quite a few mis-released discs and there's been a number of players on this forum who have seen bicep rips from jerking the arm too straight.

I think the key to my goals in form is 1. repeatable 2. longevity 3. consistent

 

[sidewinder22]

Forehand

Jerk(Late elbow cock):
Eagle
Simon
Rathbun

Smooth:
Ricky
Avery

 

[sidewinder22]

If you can toss a sledgehammer or use a battering ram smoothly then you can toss a disc smoothly.

 

[Brychanus]

Forehand

Jerk(Late elbow cock):
Eagle
Simon
Rathbun

Smooth:
Ricky
Avery

We don't see enough Dodgeball references these days!

Gibson had been working on his FH this offseason and we saw it a bit in the All Stars event. If my eye's right I think we might need to add his to the "Late elbow cock" list.

Drew Gibson Forehand

 

[seedlings]

We don't see enough Dodgeball references these days!

Gibson had been working on his FH this offseason and we saw it a bit in the All Stars event. If my eye's right I think we might need to add his to the "Late elbow cock" list.

Drew Gibson Forehand

Drew with a forehand, and now Eagle without a forehand, but throwing LHBH. 2022 starting out nutty.

 

[BillFleming]

Forehand

Jerk(Late elbow cock):
Eagle
Simon
Rathbun

Smooth:
Ricky
Avery

And both Eagle and Simon injured their throwing arms doing forehands.
Simon, it (apparently) was due to him doing a very long video trying to make aces - I think he was doing a mix of forehands and backhands.
Eagle, it was doing that Jomez 'stunt' video and dislocating his shoulder.

So, a "jerk" throw might give great distance/power....but it can also cause bad injuries.

 

[sidewinder22]

We don't see enough Dodgeball references these days!

Gibson had been working on his FH this offseason and we saw it a bit in the All Stars event. If my eye's right I think we might need to add his to the "Late elbow cock" list.

Drew Gibson Forehand

Doesn't look as bad as the others.

 

[sidewinder22]

And both Eagle and Simon injured their throwing arms doing forehands.
Simon, it (apparently) was due to him doing a very long video trying to make aces - I think he was doing a mix of forehands and backhands.
Eagle, it was doing that Jomez 'stunt' video and dislocating his shoulder.

So, a "jerk" throw might give great distance/power....but it can also cause bad injuries.

Gavin had shoulder surgery a couple months ago.

 

[Skervoy]

Also the amount of play pros do I would think everybody would focus on a sustainable form but I guees it is debateable what that is. A weekend warrior can get away with more bad form since then there can be 3-5 days full rest between a round where as a pro maybe have one day off and multiple rounds some days and field work.