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Spin vs Speed

LOL! I got carried away... and a lot more. :eek:

Reader's Digest version:

Once you achieve a stable flight with a disc, here's what varying any single aspect of velocity or spin will do:

• Increase velocity: disc will turn over - behaves "understable."
• Decrease velocity: disc will not turn over, but will fade earlier in its flight – behaves "overstable."
• Increase spin: as I've said spin creates stability. Increase spin, and disc will fade earlier, and behave overstable.
• Decrease spin: with less stability (as a result of less spin), the disc is more likely to turn over (or won't fade as early if it isn't getting up to speed in the first place), and behave "understable."

Not true. More spin doesn't make the disc understable or overstable. You gotta think about it that more spin reduces high speed turn AND low speed fade. An understable disc won't turn as much with more spin versus low spin, and an overstable disc won't fade as much with more spin versus low spin. Simply put, lots of spin (good thing) makes the discs fly straighter.

Other than that, you seem to have a pretty good idea of the physics.
 
Thanks! Putting it all together, spin is what creates the force of precession (all spinning discs have it - think of the spinning bike wheel demonstration in a physics class).

The faster the bike wheel spins, the harder it is to change the orientation of the wheel. Similarly, the faster the disc spins, the harder it is for outside forces to change it's orientation. Quite literally, spin acts to stabilize the disc in flight. By stabilize, I mean it makes the disc more resistant to outside forces acting upon it.

Hence, spin allows the disc to maintain it's angle of attack (as Sidewinder22 pointed out), but it also helps the disc resist high speed turn, as well as low speed fade (pointed out by Knettles). The more spin a disc has, the more (outside) force is required to make it deviate from its flight line and attitude.

So, it should follow that spin would also help a disc hold an annie or hyzer angle longer... make sense?
 
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This makes sense to me based on real world experience. When I power grip my driver and put a lot of spit on it, it flies on a rope. When I Fan grip the same disc and throw with not as much spin I get a sweeping S-curve.

Follow up question for the wiz kids around here... Does putting more spin fight the wind better?
 
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There's one major thing missing from that analysis, though (and it's missing almost every time someone brings it up): how big is the difference in angular momentum you can achieve by throwing with different amounts of spin compared to the aerodynamic forces?

In other words, there is some range of RPMs that you you will produce. Assuming you can control that on a drive (which I do not believe), if you compare the minimum to the maximum and the angular velocities you'll get from those angular velocities to the aerodynamic forces, what sort of difference in net force will you see? It could very well be within the margin of error of how consistent you can throw.
 
Totally agree that that people can't control the amount of spin with any degree of accuracy. Sure, it might vary from throw to throw, but for the most part, it's just gonna be what it's gonna be, and not something that you can really dial up more or less of like: velocity, nose up/down, hyzer/annie ...which are all controllable to a pretty precise degree.

However, I do believe it can vary greatly from person to person.

I think you meant
There's one major thing missing from that analysis, though (and it's missing almost every time someone brings it up): how big is the difference in angular momentum you can achieve by throwing with different amounts of spin compared to the aerodynamic forces?

In other words, there is some range of RPMs that you you will produce. Assuming you can control that on a drive (which I do not believe), if you compare the minimum to the maximum and the angular momentums you'll get from those angular velocities to the aerodynamic forces, what sort of difference in net force will you see? It could very well be within the margin of error of how consistent you can throw.
1) Isn't Angular Momentum proportional to Angular Velocity?

2) Are you suggesting the interaction of forces on the disc may not necessarily be linear, and that at some point, more spin may not necessarily be enough to overcome the aerodynamic forces acting on the disc (for example, wind resitsance is proportional to the square velocity squared)?
 
I think grip plays a lot into how much spin you put on a disc. I believe most exp players control spin with out even thinking about.

example; touch shots, when throwing an anhyzer you put a little more pop on it when you want it to hold the line down to the ground vs panning out.
 
• Increase spin: as I've said spin creates stability. Increase spin, and disc will fade earlier, and behave overstable.
• Decrease spin: with less stability (as a result of less spin), the disc is more likely to turn over (or won't fade as early if it isn't getting up to speed in the first place), and behave "understable."

This seems backwards to what Colo provided initially in the discussion of R to L side lift ratio. For the same velocity a faster spinning disc will have a higher Left to Right side lift ratio (assuming RHBH) and therefore will turn right - which is "understable" or "less overstable" depending on your terminology.
 
To toss in another thought:

When you watch some of the "snap" videos, they talk about how "throwing around the head of the disc" creates a tremendous final acceleration which is why "snap" increases the distance. While it's seems obvious that it will also increase the spin the videos don't tend to focus it.

So if you intentionally think about putting more spin on the disc isn't it going to also have a higher forward velocity? So if you increase the spin, you'll have to consciously think about slowing the arm speed if you want the same final disc forward velocity.
 
Hoping the physics heads out there can help me isolate how SPIN and SPEED (air speed, not a disc's "speed" rating) affect disc flight after the disc is released. Given: stability, speed, glide, how beat up it is, how you throw... all of it can have a major effect on disc flight. There's plenty of discussion on that here and elsewhere. Most of us know how a little (or a lot) of hyzer/ani affects our throws. (If you don't, I suggest you find out for yourself over your next few practice rounds, or better yet, in an open field).

For the purpose of this thread, please assume a disc is thrown perfectly flat, with neutral pitch (no hyzer, no ani, no nose up or down). Given that scenario, I'm pretty sure that once the disc is released, all that really matters is: Air speed and spin. Can someone tell me how each of these variables affect disc flight?

1) Two identical throws differ ONLY in air speed (same disc, same RPM, same throw, etc).
How would their flights differ?

I think discs tend to act "understable" at higher air speeds and "overstable" at lower airspeeds.

2) Now hold airspeed (and all other factors) constant and change rate of spin; two otherwise identical throws, one disc spinning faster than the other. How would their flights differ?

Not really sure how rate of spin affects flight, other than the disc needs to be spinning to achieve ANY stability. No Spin = pushing a disc = floppy short throw.

Inquiring minds want to know!


Spin tends to make a disc fight to hold its angle of release more, which generally translates into a more stable flight. This is one reason why people often turn over the same disc more easily FH than BH, because FH usually generates a higher ratio of speed vs spin, while backhand is the opposite.

Speed has a smaller effect on stability than many people assume. Unintentionally turnover is generally a result of OAT / poor release / not much spin rather than giving a disc too much speed. I can't think of any disc off the top of my head that I would consider stable, that I can overpower with too much arm speed assuming a clean release, and I can throw my putter 400'.
 
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....

So, it should follow that spin would also help a disc hold an annie or hyzer angle longer... make sense?

I believe this is correct. Increased spin allows the disc to hold its angle better, whatever angle that may be. For a turnover thrown on an anny release, spin would prevent it from fading out too early or turning and burning. For a hyzer shot released on a hyzer, spin would prevent the disc from flipping to flat or turnover or dumping out of the sky.
And when I say spin, I mean adequate spin. Too lazy to edit.
 
SPIN

Gyroscopes generate what is called gyroscopic rigidity. This is basically the force that prevents them from leaving their current plane (and is what allows a disc to fly without tumbling out of control). In the case of a disc it fights pitching and banking. The higher the spin, the more gyroscopic rigidity a disc will have. I.E. The faster the disc is spinning the more it will fight against both turn and fade, or another way, the faster it is spinning, the less it will turn OR fade.

There is a common misconception that lots of spin will increase high speed turn, because the left side of the disc is flying through the air faster than right side, thus generating more lift on the left side than the right, thereby imparting a "bank to the right" or "turn" torque. This is completely wrong on a number of accounts.

#1 The left side of the disc and the right side of the disc are flying forward through air at the same speed (unlike a helicopter where you have 2 separate wings, one flying forward and one flying backwards). The lift generated by a wing is caused by the displacement and deflection of air. The leading and trailing edge of the left side of the disc are passing through the air at the same speed, at the same angle, and displacing and deflecting air in the same fashion. This is what creates the pressure differential between the top and bottom, which generates the lift.

#2 Gyroscopic precession. This one always gets me because people oftentimes correctly describe gyroscopic precession when explaining fade, but then totally forget about it when trying to explain high speed turn. Gyroscopic precession basically alters any torque 90 degrees to the right (for RHBH), so a pitch up torque is manifested as a fade to the left, pitch down, turn to the right, and so on. If in fact the left side of the wing was generating more lift than the right side, this would result in a bank to the right torque, which due to gyroscopic precession would cause the disc to pitch or nose up. Observationally this is not the case, because in fact the disc turns to the right. In order to generate a turn to the right, there needs to be a pitch down torque applied to the disc.

#3 The only paper I ever read that tested a disc in a wind tunnel (Potts and Hummel) did not observe any measurable pitching or banking due to spin.

VELOCITY

A disc released with more velocity will always have more initial high speed turn than the same disc released with all the same release characteristics but less velocity. It will also reach it's fade point later in flight.

This is because of what causes fade and turn. Every disc has what I will call a neutral angle of attack, where the center of pressure is directly in the middle of the disc (exactly where the center of gravity is). At this angle the disc is being pulled upward and downward from the same point so there is no torque forces being applied. At a higher angle of attack the COP is forward of the COG which results in a pitch up torque, and at lower angles of attack the COP is behind the COG resulting in a pitch down torque. Due to gyroscopic precession, the pitch up torque is translated into a bank left or fade, and the pitch down torque to a bank right or turn. (Interesting tidbit: This is how helicopters steer. There is a linkage between the stick the pilot uses that alters his inputs 90 degrees. So when the pilot pushes the stick forward, the linkage causes the right side to generate more lift, which due to gyroscopic precession results in the helicopter nosing or pitching down.)

Lift is directly related to velocity, more velocity equals more lift. So let's look at 3 examples of the exact same throw but with different release velocities: an amateur throwing a disc, your grandma throwing a disc, and a pro throwing a disc. We'll assume the neutral angle of attack for this particular disc is 10 degrees and all 3 are releasing it at a 10 degree angle of attack. So at initial release for all 3 of our throwers, there is no torque forces being applied since the COP and COG are in the same spot.

Let's look at the Am first. We'll assume the am throws the disc at a velocity where the disc is generating the exact amount of lift to counteract gravity. So the Am's disc flies out a short distance and has neither descended or ascended, so it's maintaining the initial 10 degree angle of attack. At this point the Am's disc is still going straight, and has neither turned or faded because it is still flying at the neutral angle of attack.

Let's look at the Pro. The pro has thrown the disc at a much higher velocity, such that the force of lift exceeds the force of gravity. This results in the pro's disc ascending. So the pro started with a 10 degree angle of attack, and the ascent has caused it to start traveling forward and up at an angle of 5 degrees. So now the pro's angle of attack (keep in mind the angle of attack is the angle through the air, not in relation to the ground) is now only 5 degrees. Due to the decrease in angle of attack, the COP on his disc has moved behind the COG, resulting in a pitch down torque. Due to gyroscopic precession this gets translated into a turn to the right.

Now let's look at Grandma. Grandma can't throw hard, so her disc is generating less lift than gravity resulting in her disc immediately descending. We'll assume shortly after release it's descending at 5 degrees. Couple this with the initial angle of attack of 10 degrees, and now grandma's disc is flying at a 15 degree angle of attack. Due to this increase in angle of attack the COP has moved forward of the COG, resulting in a pitch up torque. Due to gyroscopic precession this is translated into fade left.

Of course due to drag, everyone's disc will slow down and gradually lose lift. Eventually the pro's disc will start to descend and begin to fade back left, resulting in the beautiful long distance S curve. Unfortunately for grandma, her's will just fade off and crash into the ground.

TO SUM THINGS UP

More spin = more rigidity (I.E. it will resist both turn and fade)

More velocity = more initial high speed turn, and fade starting later in flight

FURTHER RAMBLINGS

All of this velocity and spin physics is why as an amateur you should try to use disc speeds that fit your power. Higher speed discs are designed to go faster. In order to do this they design the disc to be much more knife like to reduce drag, but this also results in less lift. It's similar to the difference between an airplane wing with its flaps up or down. With a high speed disc you need to be able to achieve a much higher release velocity in order to achieve enough lift for it fly a proper line.
 
To toss in another thought:

When you watch some of the "snap" videos, they talk about how "throwing around the head of the disc" creates a tremendous final acceleration which is why "snap" increases the distance. While it's seems obvious that it will also increase the spin the videos don't tend to focus it.
Yeah, the same motion about your wrist that will provide add'l velocity will also generate a greater moment about about the point where you hold the disc - as it pivots around even harder, I can't really understand how to control the two seperately on a drive - not even gonna try. Perhaps on short and finesse shots, but for 200' and up, no way.

Not trying to figure out how to control spin - I've conceded that it's virtually impossible to adequately dial in a desired amount of spin off the tee. Just want to better understand its effect on the throw.

Spin tends to make a disc fight to hold its angle of release more, which generally translates into a more stable flight.
Seems to be the prevailing concensus since I dusted off this thread.


This is one reason why people often turn over the same disc more easily FH than BH, because FH usually generates a higher ratio of speed vs spin, while backhand is the opposite.
Which comes back to some of the points I made in "Wall of Text" post. While admittedly wrong with some opinions, I still think the ratio of speed:spin is a has a lot to do with how that disc will behave. But I'm having a helluva time actually understanding how fiddling with those variables independently afects the disc in flight.
 
^^ Thanks for an outstanding post DG Player! Want to read that a few times to really comprehend some of those points.
 
SPIN
There is a common misconception that lots of spin will increase high speed turn, because the left side of the disc is flying through the air faster than right side, thus generating more lift on the left side than the right, thereby imparting a "bank to the right" or "turn" torque. This is completely wrong on a number of accounts.

I was simply pointing out the contratiction between the description by colo (and Rameka) and the summary of the affect of spin. I'm an Electrical Eng not aero nor have I studied fluild dynamics as colo stated he had done. DG_player has stated that colo is "completely wrong" yet he has not stated his own credentials. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume DG is an engineer/physist. His explainations certainly seem well thought out and reasonable. So now I'm faced which a decision of which "expert" to believe. Isn't science fun!! :wall: :doh: I love watching experts argue!! :D
 
But since Colo hasn't logged in for years, I doubt we'll be hearing from him.
 
I think you meant
1) Isn't Angular Momentum proportional to Angular Velocity?

2) Are you suggesting the interaction of forces on the disc may not necessarily be linear, and that at some point, more spin may not necessarily be enough to overcome the aerodynamic forces acting on the disc (for example, wind resitsance is proportional to the square velocity squared)?
Yeah, one of the times I said "velocity" should be "momentum."

What I'm saying is that the differences in RPM's that you can put on a disc for a drive might not account for a big enough difference to matter. Lets say you can purposefully vary the spin by plus or minus 10%. Lets say you can throw perfectly consistent and the wind is perfectly consistent. The only thing changing from throw to throw is the amount of spin. Say you throw a disc that has a -1 high speed stability. It's very possible that that +/- 10% difference in speed only changes it from a -1.01 to a -0.99 HSS. The effect of changing the spin on the order of what's humanly possible might be tiny compared to the aerodynamic forces and our inherent inconsistency.

Of course that all assumes you can change the spin on purpose. Here's a post from Erin Hemmings (has thrown a disc over 200M and an Aerobie over a quarter mile) about his experiments with spin:

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=28883

It's more focused more around the interaction between what actually happens to spin when velocity is changed than anything else, but it shows that we probably don't really have the control over a disc's RPM's at a level that is likely to matter.
 
^ thanks Garu! Good read. Interesting to see some one comparing rates of spin for FH and BH throws experimentally, although it would have been nice to see the empirical data for that.

Also interesting that his fastest RPM's occurred at 54MPH (vs his max of 80MPH).
That's about 68% power or so. I can understand how he'd surmise that...
...the wrist can't keep up with really fast arm speeds, and can't supply an ever increasing amount of spin.

Switching gears a bit, I can't think of any reason a wrist should need to be capable of such rapid movement from an evolutionary standpoint - so it wouldn't be surprising if he's right about that.

Also, thanks for calrifying your point, I more clearly see what you mean. Our inherent inconsistency easily outweighs our ability to vary spin from a practical standpoint.
 
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SPIN

Gyroscopes generate what is called gyroscopic rigidity. This is basically the force that prevents them from leaving their current plane (and is what allows a disc to fly without tumbling out of control). In the case of a disc it fights pitching and banking. The higher the spin, the more gyroscopic rigidity a disc will have. I.E. The faster the disc is spinning the more it will fight against both turn and fade, or another way, the faster it is spinning, the less it will turn OR fade.

There is a common misconception that lots of spin will increase high speed turn, because the left side of the disc is flying through the air faster than right side, thus generating more lift on the left side than the right, thereby imparting a "bank to the right" or "turn" torque. This is completely wrong on a number of accounts.

#1 The left side of the disc and the right side of the disc are flying forward through air at the same speed (unlike a helicopter where you have 2 separate wings, one flying forward and one flying backwards). The lift generated by a wing is caused by the displacement and deflection of air. The leading and trailing edge of the left side of the disc are passing through the air at the same speed, at the same angle, and displacing and deflecting air in the same fashion. This is what creates the pressure differential between the top and bottom, which generates the lift.

#2 Gyroscopic precession. This one always gets me because people oftentimes correctly describe gyroscopic precession when explaining fade, but then totally forget about it when trying to explain high speed turn. Gyroscopic precession basically alters any torque 90 degrees to the right (for RHBH), so a pitch up torque is manifested as a fade to the left, pitch down, turn to the right, and so on. If in fact the left side of the wing was generating more lift than the right side, this would result in a bank to the right torque, which due to gyroscopic precession would cause the disc to pitch or nose up. Observationally this is not the case, because in fact the disc turns to the right. In order to generate a turn to the right, there needs to be a pitch down torque applied to the disc.

#3 The only paper I ever read that tested a disc in a wind tunnel (Potts and Hummel) did not observe any measurable pitching or banking due to spin.

VELOCITY

A disc released with more velocity will always have more initial high speed turn than the same disc released with all the same release characteristics but less velocity. It will also reach it's fade point later in flight.

This is because of what causes fade and turn. Every disc has what I will call a neutral angle of attack, where the center of pressure is directly in the middle of the disc (exactly where the center of gravity is). At this angle the disc is being pulled upward and downward from the same point so there is no torque forces being applied. At a higher angle of attack the COP is forward of the COG which results in a pitch up torque, and at lower angles of attack the COP is behind the COG resulting in a pitch down torque. Due to gyroscopic precession, the pitch up torque is translated into a bank left or fade, and the pitch down torque to a bank right or turn. (Interesting tidbit: This is how helicopters steer. There is a linkage between the stick the pilot uses that alters his inputs 90 degrees. So when the pilot pushes the stick forward, the linkage causes the right side to generate more lift, which due to gyroscopic precession results in the helicopter nosing or pitching down.)

Lift is directly related to velocity, more velocity equals more lift. So let's look at 3 examples of the exact same throw but with different release velocities: an amateur throwing a disc, your grandma throwing a disc, and a pro throwing a disc. We'll assume the neutral angle of attack for this particular disc is 10 degrees and all 3 are releasing it at a 10 degree angle of attack. So at initial release for all 3 of our throwers, there is no torque forces being applied since the COP and COG are in the same spot.

Let's look at the Am first. We'll assume the am throws the disc at a velocity where the disc is generating the exact amount of lift to counteract gravity. So the Am's disc flies out a short distance and has neither descended or ascended, so it's maintaining the initial 10 degree angle of attack. At this point the Am's disc is still going straight, and has neither turned or faded because it is still flying at the neutral angle of attack.

Let's look at the Pro. The pro has thrown the disc at a much higher velocity, such that the force of lift exceeds the force of gravity. This results in the pro's disc ascending. So the pro started with a 10 degree angle of attack, and the ascent has caused it to start traveling forward and up at an angle of 5 degrees. So now the pro's angle of attack (keep in mind the angle of attack is the angle through the air, not in relation to the ground) is now only 5 degrees. Due to the decrease in angle of attack, the COP on his disc has moved behind the COG, resulting in a pitch down torque. Due to gyroscopic precession this gets translated into a turn to the right.

Now let's look at Grandma. Grandma can't throw hard, so her disc is generating less lift than gravity resulting in her disc immediately descending. We'll assume shortly after release it's descending at 5 degrees. Couple this with the initial angle of attack of 10 degrees, and now grandma's disc is flying at a 15 degree angle of attack. Due to this increase in angle of attack the COP has moved forward of the COG, resulting in a pitch up torque. Due to gyroscopic precession this is translated into fade left.

Of course due to drag, everyone's disc will slow down and gradually lose lift. Eventually the pro's disc will start to descend and begin to fade back left, resulting in the beautiful long distance S curve. Unfortunately for grandma, her's will just fade off and crash into the ground.

TO SUM THINGS UP

More spin = more rigidity (I.E. it will resist both turn and fade)

More velocity = more initial high speed turn, and fade starting later in flight

FURTHER RAMBLINGS

All of this velocity and spin physics is why as an amateur you should try to use disc speeds that fit your power. Higher speed discs are designed to go faster. In order to do this they design the disc to be much more knife like to reduce drag, but this also results in less lift. It's similar to the difference between an airplane wing with its flaps up or down. With a high speed disc you need to be able to achieve a much higher release velocity in order to achieve enough lift for it fly a proper line.

nice
 

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