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TAP or DOP instead of Par?

No, an EXTREMELY SMALL MINORITY of posters--typically the same ones in every thread on the topic--get "all torqued up" over the definition of par.

Take this thread: THREE of the 48 posters (out of 42,127 registered MB users) are responsible for over half (86/157) posts to date, and more than half of the posters in the thread are one-and-done.

I am certainly one of the ESM you speak of.....and no, I do not "get exercised" or "all torqued up" over the topic of Par (in and of itself at least).

People spout off with drive-by one-liners about all the problems. And the common problems that get mentioned repeatedly are all legit problems....and they deserve an attempt at being fixed. And the common problems are all intertwined. And many of the common problems are at odds with other common problems.

As an engineer, I like to design things that solve a problem. This stuff is intriguing to me.

I am not in a position in life right now to be an implementer of any solutions we find...if we ever find any. I used to be in a position of more influence on this stuff...albeit very very small compared to the entire scale. But I'd like to think I left a positive mark that made a little difference in these areas.

I also hope to eventually be back in more of an influential position. But whether I am or am not, what is important and certainly much bigger is that there might be readers of this stuff that have seeds of ideas planted that grow into something positive for the Sport. Either by some good ideas we stumble upon, or more likely by avoiding some of the foolishness we/I post here in our brainstorming.

Brainstorming for solutions is better than complaining about problems.....I like to think.
 
People spout off with drive-by one-liners about all the problems. And the common problems that get mentioned repeatedly are all legit problems....and they deserve an attempt at being fixed. And the common problems are all intertwined. And many of the common problems are at odds with other common problems.

FWIW (probably not much), topics/compaints/problems that are intertwined with the "simple" Par discussion include (in rough order of how much I think about them):
Course design
Skill level - courses and divisions
Recreational play versus tournament
Rules
Spectator friendliness - via camera and in person and online
Equipment design
Public perception
 
The purpose of a competitive event involving more than one competitor is to measure one's mastery of a skill set against that of others: otherwise, there would be no reason or need to keep or compare scores. So when you're playing by yourself, you MAY be playing against the course (but then, why keep score), but when you're playing in a structured competition, you're playing ON the course AGAINST other competitors.

I don't think I agree. Of course there's a reason to keep score. You can win a tournament (which is great) but still lose to the course (which leaves you wanting more.) It is the nature of this beast we play. We all strive for perfection, but perfection is never realized. (even if you always beat your friends)

I've heard numerous top pros say that they play against the course, not their competitors.
 
I don't think I agree. Of course there's a reason to keep score. You can win a tournament (which is great) but still lose to the course (which leaves you wanting more.) It is the nature of this beast we play. We all strive for perfection, but perfection is never realized. (even if you always beat your friends)

I've heard numerous top pros say that they play against the course, not their competitors.

You are powerless against your competitors. You have to take it up with the course.
 
..
I'd say one of the biggest uses for par in a competition setting would be when comparing scores throughout the tourney to get an idea where people fall despite the fact that they have played a different composition of holes on the course. That still does not require par to be set low and difficult...

Actually, it does require par to be low. Or, at least a low par works much better. Everyone starts at even par. If par is low, the top players also finish near even par. So, whether you have played more or fewer rounds than the other players, or different courses, you still know where you stand in relation to even par, which is the same as a direct comparison to the top players.

If par is high, then you have to make adjustments based on how many holes each player has completed, and the relative difference between par and what you expect the best players to actually score on each course (even each hole) that you each have played, as well as take a guess as to how many under a "good" score will be.

I'm curious---why 37%, not 50%? It seems to me if we wanted par to be what a scratch player would be expected to shoot on a hole, or be most likely to shoot on a hole, the median would be the right number.

(Another argument against average is those holes, usually with a lot of O.B., that tend to get more than their share of scores 2, 3, 4 shots above the median).

It's not what a scratch player would be expected to shoot (that would be the average), nor what a scratch player would be most likely to score (that would be the mode). It's what a scratch player would be expected to shoot with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions. A score with no errors and no bad weather is somewhat lower than the average score.

One could ask, why not 1%? If somebody got that score, it's possible, so why isn't that par? That goes beyond expected, and enters into lucky, I think.

Somewhere between "at least one player got this low score" and "over half the players got this low score", there is a point where enough players get that score that you can expect a player to get that score if he doesn't make a mistake.

I chose (1/e) because that is the percentage of a distribution which maximizes the contribution to the information content. That tells me 37% is pretty good evidence.

A case could be made for anything from about 25% to 50%. Looking at a lot of scoring distributions, I got the feeling that 37% works pretty well.

For example, say 10% get 2, 30% get 3, and 20% get 4, 5, or 6. It's clear a player should get a 3, and might get a lucky 2. Par should be 3. When I tried a cutoff of 50%, it resulted in more cases like this where it seemed to include some players who were not playing errorlessly.

Even better would be to go out and watch the hole being played. If you decide someone made an error, don't count that score. Then, look at the scores of the other players.

For starters:
It does not fix the aversion to Par-2's
It does not fix the perception that people make Par much more complicated than it needs to be
It does not fix the problem that even if people agreed in concept, they would fix their tee signs
It would cause a problem that Red Tees will not have the same Par as Gold/Black Tees (Golf convention)

If the definition were actually accepted, all but the last do go away. People would understand that on some holes a 1000-rated player should get a 2 if he doesn't make an error. Do you really think that is news to anyone?

Par would be simpler, because it would be based on a simple to understand definition. While "the score an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions" might not roll off the tongue, everyone would know it's "what an expert should score."

All those other definitions of par, which I think are the sources of complications you are talking about, go away. Or, if you're referring to the internal calculations, who would see those except those doing the calculations? All players would see is a number on the tee sign or scorecard. They would know that score is both doable, and what they should shoot for. (For the par for their level.)

We don't have golf's handicapping system which can tell players what score they should expect on any course and any set of tees for any set of pin positions for any given day.

We have the system where players only need to know what colored-coded level of player they are, and simply look at their par on the sign. Even without knowledge of ratings, people would figure out which color of par matches their scores after one round. That system would continue to work just fine. It's not a problem, it's a feature.

Isn't anyone going to come on and defend the current system of par as the best we could possibly have?

Haven't you been paying attention? It's best because it's what's on 8,000 tee signs. It's best because people are averse to par 2's. It's best because people have an inalienable right to birdie, it's best because par doesn't matter anyway...need I go on?

Every step of progress made in the history of humankind has been in SPITE of the majority saying "It's fine as it is."

Translated from grunts and clicks: Why all this discussion on learning to use fire? Raw meat is my favorite food. Leave it alone.
 
Exactly. It would be different if we could play defense in DG.

Oh, WAY different. Although you could probably wear a shirt with your avatar picture on it and I would be adequately disturbed the whole round. Might be considered some form of defense.
 
Par.

professional average rating.

How about we set it up exactly how the name describes ? Define a limit where people are "professionals" ( rating 1000+ was mentioned in this thread before and i kinda like the idea ) and then take the average of the scores they play on any given course during tournaments ?

That would be par that deserves to be called par.
 
It's not what a scratch player would be expected to shoot (that would be the average), nor what a scratch player would be most likely to score (that would be the mode). It's what a scratch player would be expected to shoot with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions. A score with no errors and no bad weather is somewhat lower than the average score.

One could ask, why not 1%? If somebody got that score, it's possible, so why isn't that par? That goes beyond expected, and enters into lucky, I think.

Somewhere between "at least one player got this low score" and "over half the players got this low score", there is a point where enough players get that score that you can expect a player to get that score if he doesn't make a mistake.

I chose (1/e) because that is the percentage of a distribution which maximizes the contribution to the information content. That tells me 37% is pretty good evidence.

A case could be made for anything from about 25% to 50%. Looking at a lot of scoring distributions, I got the feeling that 37% works pretty well.

For example, say 10% get 2, 30% get 3, and 20% get 4, 5, or 6. It's clear a player should get a 3, and might get a lucky 2. Par should be 3. When I tried a cutoff of 50%, it resulted in more cases like this where it seemed to include some players who were not playing errorlessly.

Even better would be to go out and watch the hole being played. If you decide someone made an error, don't count that score. Then, look at the scores of the other players.

Okay.......do you think "errorless" play is the right standard for "par"? Assuming, for a moment, that we were in the business of coming up with a new standard, and seeking the best one.

"Errorless" being a bit vague. My errors have various degrees of severity.

I'm thinking in two concepts. One is descriptive: "What is Par?" "It's what a top player should get, most of the time." If I get par, I matched what a top player would generally get; if I bogie, I'm one throw worse. "Par" should mean something, besides a statistical value we've assigned it, and it seems intuitive that the average or, better, the mean score for the top players fits well.

The other concept is a par setting that leads to top players finishing at, or at least near, par, so that each birdie gains a stroke on the lead, each bogie loses one; and you can compare players' standings even if they've finished or played different parts of the course, or even roughly, different courses. Does the 37% do a better job of this?

Sorry, my math skills have atrophied. I don't remember if I ever knew how to work this out.
 
Okay.......do you think "errorless" play is the right standard for "par"? Assuming, for a moment, that we were in the business of coming up with a new standard, and seeking the best one.

Of course we are. Who else is going to?

"Errorless" being a bit vague. My errors have various degrees of severity.

I'm thinking in two concepts. One is descriptive: "What is Par?" "It's what a top player should get, most of the time." If I get par, I matched what a top player would generally get; if I bogie, I'm one throw worse. "Par" should mean something, besides a statistical value we've assigned it, and it seems intuitive that the average or, better, the mean score for the top players fits well.

I think of errorless as what a player "should" get. What the player realistically hope for. What the player expects if they play well. The score that's in their head when they think, "I know exactly how I want to play this hole". Most of the time, a top player will not make an error, so it is what they will get. So, yes, that seems right to me. Both as a guide to playing the hole and as a measure against a standard.

The other concept is a par setting that leads to top players finishing at, or at least near, par, so that each birdie gains a stroke on the lead, each bogie loses one; and you can compare players' standings even if they've finished or played different parts of the course, or even roughly, different courses. Does the 37% do a better job of this?

Sorry, my math skills have atrophied. I don't remember if I ever knew how to work this out.

Any definition of par that sets par between the winning score and the SSA works fine for comparing against other players, if it allows for par 2.

The 37% does an excellent job of that, as far as I can tell. It's not obvious that it should, but it does. I think it is because each error creates such a large change in score (50%. 33%, or 25% higher than without an error) that errors leave obvious tracks in the scoring distribution. It's not that 37% is magic, there is just a wide target to hit. Between 25% and 50%, not a lot really changes. Most players get the most popular score on most holes, mostly.

I would set the fraction (up or down from 37%) to produce a par that is higher than the winning score. The reason is that to win, a player has to be both errorless AND lucky. Because some players is always going to get lucky on any given day. The winning score should be a little under par.

Also, it should be lower than SSA, because a 1000-rated player that commits no errors in a day is going to score better than SSA.

I would need to test it against a lot of tournaments, if I can get hole-by-hole-by-player scores. Because there is no formula for the scoring distribution of disc golf holes, there is no formula for setting the 37%.

Anyway, the 37% would not be the definition of par. It would just be a quick, mechanical way to set it at a level which is almost always equal to the number the definition would give you.

One could certainly go in and make adjustments to particular holes. Perhaps the TD thinks there is a hole that has an errorless way to play which less than 37% of players know about. Like hole 10 at BRP, perhaps. Or, a TD need not use any statistics, if they know how each hole should be played by a 1000-rated player.
 

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