Out of curiosity, how are they defining "overhand" in this waivered rule?
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Texas Collegiate Championships- No Overhands?
- Thread starter biscoe
- Start date
Let's see. The options were to---
(1) Design the course, or temporarily re-design it, to discourage overhands
(2) Move this event to a different course. Texas must have 300 to choose from.
(3) Reluctantly accept that people will throw overhands, and live with it.
(4) Get a rules waiver.
Now, I've been known to express disdain at people throwing overhands off the tee---and occasionally question their morals---but I believe I would have tried one of the first three options, myself.
(1) Design the course, or temporarily re-design it, to discourage overhands
(2) Move this event to a different course. Texas must have 300 to choose from.
(3) Reluctantly accept that people will throw overhands, and live with it.
(4) Get a rules waiver.
Now, I've been known to express disdain at people throwing overhands off the tee---and occasionally question their morals---but I believe I would have tried one of the first three options, myself.
Gblambert
Birdie Member
The reason for the tournament was to select the best collegiate players to represent the state of Texas at Nationals next year in Georgia, so the TD's may have used this rule to help select players with well rounded games that might be expected to perform well on those courses.
ILUVSMGS18
Just Another Disc Hoarder
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2014
- Messages
- 2,492
I (as a 18 year old kid) hope that this rule becomes a PDGA rule across all events with one exception, when you are behind a tree with no other way that to either throw threw the trees or over them, but only form the fairway. I can throw 270' OHs but why would I do that if i know that I can execute a FH roller, spike hyzer, or other shot that is harder to execute properly compared to an OH. I'm sure I'm in the minority but it leads to layers using it for other things than what it was designed for which was to clear over obstacles when there is no clear path to the basket.
dontBLAMEtheDISC
Birdie Member
I think you mean the the best teams that just so happen to preform the best during the one qualifier tournament they happen to play in.
But at this point collegiate tournaments Nationals etc can do whatever they like because at this stage its the worst set up "division" in disc golf and they can't really make it any worse.
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dontBLAMEtheDISC
Birdie Member
Well hey let's not stop there let's get rid of rollers and throwing discs upside down also. Heck who even really needs a run up let's just make it stand and deliver as well.
Also I think you may underestimate people who have developed there overhand shots some things they do definitely take more skill than a roller etc
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Meillo
Eagle Member
This decision is really bad, because it's arbitrary, without good causes, hard to decide on course, and does not actually solve the problem.
If the course is easiest to play a certain way, then the goal for sure should be to play it that easiest way. That's the essence of a game. If the best shot is a roller, so throw a roller; if it's a spike hyzer, then thow that, and if it's a tomahawk, then use that.
If this best way is not the most common, so what?! If it would reduce Par-3s to Par-2s, so what?! But that will unlikely happen, as players would have to be as used to overheads as they are used to other shots. You can have a look at it from any angle, it doesn't matter: the decision remains a bad one.
... for fun rounds, that's a different topic.
Wait, let's ban Comets on wooded courses, as they clearly make it too easy!
If the course is easiest to play a certain way, then the goal for sure should be to play it that easiest way. That's the essence of a game. If the best shot is a roller, so throw a roller; if it's a spike hyzer, then thow that, and if it's a tomahawk, then use that.
If this best way is not the most common, so what?! If it would reduce Par-3s to Par-2s, so what?! But that will unlikely happen, as players would have to be as used to overheads as they are used to other shots. You can have a look at it from any angle, it doesn't matter: the decision remains a bad one.
... for fun rounds, that's a different topic.
Wait, let's ban Comets on wooded courses, as they clearly make it too easy!
Note that, in this particular case, it only applies to tee shots. You can OH from behind trees, deep in the woods, or to putt if you wish, anywhere else on the course.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Considering the woefully small sample sizes involved not many.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Chuck- can you cite other instances where waivers have been granted regarding the basic rules of play rather than stuff that is more ground rule related or equipment related? I think that aspect is what bothers me most about this. Not quite sure how to phrase this so hopefully that is clear.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
so much this. (bold added for emphasis)
bwgort
Birdie Member
It's actually not conventional disc golf because there's a rule waiver to ignore qa29. If someone is rated 980 and has a lot of overhand shots in their bag but without overhand shots they'd be rated 940, how can you generate ratings for that player based on a game they aren't playing? This is another great example of how arbitrary ratings rulings are. If I tried to ban forehand from my event, there's no way you'd approve the waiver and let me receive ratings. Challenge: support your claim that this event should receive ratings with math showing that restricting two types of overhand while allowing all other types of overhands does not change the ratings. It can't be done since all ratings are based on the ability to throw overhands off the tee.
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
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A few thoughts I've been thinking about over the last 18 hours or so since hearing this.
- The USDGC year by year has done things that are not allowed in the rules and required a waiver to do. It's rarely brought up because talking badly publicly about the USDGC is seen to be taboo. While they've never limited a type of shot, it's somewhat in the same ballpark.
- This is a collegiate event, not an A or event a normal C tier. For years I've been screaming to the PDGA to stop testing things at majors. While I disagree with the decision, I'm happy to see something being tested at a event without serious money and titles on the line.
- I've seen this exact thing before on courses accomplished with horizontal mandos / triple mandos. However, they only limited a certain path, not a shot. You can still throw an overhand as long as you go beneath something. I read that the TD Would have built triple mandos in front of every tee if the waiver wasn't approved. As much as I would have hated it, that should have been the result.
- This is a classic example of an overall issue we have in disc golf. Why is a venue that doesn't appear to be ready to host an event hosting an event? The issue isn't that you can't throw overhands, it's that you are playing on a venue where that was discussed as an option.
- The USDGC year by year has done things that are not allowed in the rules and required a waiver to do. It's rarely brought up because talking badly publicly about the USDGC is seen to be taboo. While they've never limited a type of shot, it's somewhat in the same ballpark.
- This is a collegiate event, not an A or event a normal C tier. For years I've been screaming to the PDGA to stop testing things at majors. While I disagree with the decision, I'm happy to see something being tested at a event without serious money and titles on the line.
- I've seen this exact thing before on courses accomplished with horizontal mandos / triple mandos. However, they only limited a certain path, not a shot. You can still throw an overhand as long as you go beneath something. I read that the TD Would have built triple mandos in front of every tee if the waiver wasn't approved. As much as I would have hated it, that should have been the result.
- This is a classic example of an overall issue we have in disc golf. Why is a venue that doesn't appear to be ready to host an event hosting an event? The issue isn't that you can't throw overhands, it's that you are playing on a venue where that was discussed as an option.
....in light of the fact that a course with one "island hole", where players must re-throw if O.B. (with a waiver, these days), is unratable.
There really needs to be an extremely thorough explanation of what can and cannot be done. If someones normal forehand is released above their head is it legal? Can you throw a forehand or backhand roller that is released above your head? Can you throw a shot that is the same as an overhead shot but gets released below my head? Can I lay down flat on my back on the tee and then throw a shot that looks like an overhead, since technically it would be released in front of my body and not over my hear.
How you can crown a collegiate champion in Texas without playing by all the general rules of disc golf is just baffling. Ever since the new board members got elected, the PDGA has been striking out, even if the new board members had nothing to do with this.
How you can crown a collegiate champion in Texas without playing by all the general rules of disc golf is just baffling. Ever since the new board members got elected, the PDGA has been striking out, even if the new board members had nothing to do with this.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
I agree with you on most of these points however has there ever been anything done at USDGC that was more "thrower related" than "course related"?
OR let's ban Chainstars because pros are unable to slow their putts down to less than 60mph and those baskets "cause" spit outs.
(Steps behind asbestos curtain for the inevitable flames)
Meillo is exactly right though. This rule is way too arbitrary for a rated tournament IMHO. According to this site Texas has 110 courses with a 3.5 or better rating. Then again, this might be a case of, "This is the only place we could get someone to volunteer to host this thing." Even if that were the case, what's to prevent hyzers or other throws that go way up in the air that have roughly the same effect off the tee?
One of the things I've always like about disc golf was the concept that if it comes out of your hand (for the most part) it's a throw. There's no distinction between overhand, forehand, etc. which is a part of the game that has always appealed to me - shot creativity. This rule limits creativity and thus takes some of the shine off the sport for me.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Most of the striking out on the rules stuff was done by the old board on the way out.
bnbanbury
Eagle Member
What the shot was designed for? Did the committee for shot design weigh in on what each type of throw is to be used for?
The rule would be terrible and terribly difficult to implement. If I throw an forehand roller, how long can it stay in the air before it becomes an overhand shot (i mean the release is overhand). When a thumber thrower drops his arm slot down to throw a a sweeping left to right thumber shot does it cease to be an overhand because he is not longer releasing overhead?
And if your assessment of the easiest shots to throw were accurate you would see a lot more thumbers than you do. Spike hyzers are both more consistent and more efficient than a thumber - easier to throw for distance and a much more consistent action on landing.
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