The Brinster Hop

[Putt for D'oh]

His timing is flawless *snip*
THAT is key here!

fixed that

I think this is the true key.
Everything works together so all parts mentioned form and follow thru and forward momentum and the brace.
If the timing is off everything else is moot. Granted you can't say someones form is perfect if their timing is bad, but you can have someone with perfect angles and everything on a pure planes but if the timing is off? throw doesn't work. Same as momentum into the brace. The mechanics can be there but without the timing it isn't actually bracing.

 

[ranger]

so, how on earth does one develop the timing on with the hop? It seems to add an extra variable to the equation.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Its a lot like footwork for a 360 drive without the spin.

Practice. Timing is the problem with all of us not throwing 500' regardless of the player type really.

 

[wreckreation]

so, how on earth does one develop the timing on with the hop? It seems to add an extra variable to the equation.

For me at least, it seems to have actually helped my timing with no practice at all. After seeing this thread I tried it on the course. Nothing exaggerated or extreme, just a quick small hop. My timing is normally awful, and I suck at driving most days, and this actually made my timing on hyzers and hyzerflips pretty decent (or at least much less awful) and much more consistent. Gave me a little more power and a little more nose-down from the forced weight shift. The couple anhyzers I tried with it were complete disasters though (crazy wobble OATs for some reason), so I've continued doing my normal slow walk-up for those until I can get to a field and try to work on it.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

so, how on earth does one develop the timing on with the hop? It seems to add an extra variable to the equation.

As Consult mentioned above - a big part of the key is timing your motion to take advantage of your moving weight:

Assuming you are static - your center of weight is typically a few centimeters below your navel. When you move or bend, you change your center of weight. I think an upright x-step is easier for some people to keep their center of weight balanced.

By hopping, Brinster and other hoppers shift their center of weight straight up (yellow dot) and please forgive me it I'm off by a bit - I'm not a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist like some of these guys. But you should get the idea: you hoist your center of weight and let it come down into the brace.

As the center of weight sloshes down into the planted thigh, you time the disc to come through with it. I've absolutely felt it timed right, and in my original video up top - I was sloshing back down with my weight - and then sloshing it forward. Wasteful. :doh:

I'd equate this motion to driving forward from your back foot w/ an x-step (winning the tug of war against the guy behind you) and bracing perfectly balanced against your plant foot.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

Garett Gurthie has a hippity-hop.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

so, how on earth does one develop the timing on with the hop? It seems to add an extra variable to the equation.

Doesn't seem to, it does add another variable.

Just like all parts of the throw you work on the pieces and add in more and more. This is where the Beto Drill starts. Committing that motion to unconscious muscle memory and working all parts of the throw in once that is done.
Getting weight transfer and hips and shoulders timed in a standstill, then adding one step, then small hop, then a run-up.

Look back at the baseball long toss video HUB posted a few days ago. Start by limiting the variables then adding them in slowly as the timing is locked in.

The step or hop is only part of the whole. Add up the other parts first.

 

[Dr.Smooth]

-Yes the exaggerated hop is another variable.

-Steve executes is so perfectly with all the other necessary variables needed for great form.

-All good form, thats using forward momentum (inertia) has a rise and fall like the hop. It is just much more subtle than the brinster hop.

-It may be argued that steve's hop is a bit too much. He can get away with it because of how well everthing else flows together.

 

[Consult20]

As Consult mentioned above - a big part of the key is timing your motion to take advantage of your moving weight:

Assuming you are static - your center of weight is typically a few centimeters below your navel. When you move or bend, you change your center of weight. I think an upright x-step is easier for some people to keep their center of weight balanced.

By hopping, Brinster and other hoppers shift their center of weight straight up (yellow dot) and please forgive me it I'm off by a bit - I'm not a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist like some of these guys. But you should get the idea: you hoist your center of weight and let it come down into the brace.

As the center of weight sloshes down into the planted thigh, you time the disc to come through with it. I've absolutely felt it timed right, and in my original video up top - I was sloshing back down with my weight - and then sloshing it forward. Wasteful. :doh:

I'd equate this motion to driving forward from your back foot w/ an x-step (winning the tug of war against the guy behind you) and bracing perfectly balanced against your plant foot.

Where's the yellow dot?

Brinster is doing essentially an x-step hop, very close anyway. And yes when the timing is right you just know it, if it's off it feels unorthodox and herky jerky. Really not that different to an normal x-step, it's just adding more of a spring to your step for elevation to get more downward/forward momentum. I think it's one of those things that allows you to get more power into a shot without a faster run up. The down force helps sling your arm forward faster if reach back timing and bracing are in sync.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Where's the yellow dot?

Watch it twice... it has the dot the 2nd time through.

 

[Consult20]

Watch it twice... it has the dot the 2nd time through.

Ok now it's showing up, before it wasn't -- was just looping the non-dot footage. Mystery of the dgcr missing yellow dot 2016

 

[Consult20]

You can see the reach back has to be fully extended just prior to the plant foot landing. If it's late (like you did in your original post), you lose the benefit of the extra momentum and it's like 2 different motions instead of one fluid motion. Like plant/sling vs plant/finish reach back/then sling what's left. I've always thought a radar gun and a net would really reveal timing flaws and improvements with any driving technique -- instant feedback. I may invest in that setup this year, decent radar guns are under $200 now.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

You can see the reach back has to be fully extended just prior to the plant foot landing. If it's late (like you did in your original post), you lose the benefit of the extra momentum and it's like 2 different motions instead of one fluid motion. Like plant/sling vs plant/finish reach back/then sling what's left. I've always thought a radar gun and a net would really reveal timing flaws and improvements with any driving technique -- instant feedback. I may invest in that setup this year, decent radar guns are under $200 now.

I'm not sure a radar gun would show more than slow motion video, especially if you can side by side with someone like Brinster. See that outfielder video I posted earlier. He is comparing where the arm is loaded vs when the plant foot comes down. You watch in full speed and it is miliseconds of difference. Slowed to frame by frame and it is revealed. Huge power leak.

-Yes the exaggerated hop is another variable.

-Steve executes is so perfectly with all the other necessary variables needed for great form.

-All good form, thats using forward momentum (inertia) has a rise and fall like the hop. It is just much more subtle than the brinster hop.

-It may be argued that steve's hop is a bit too much. He can get away with it because of how well everthing else flows together.

Truth, not sure I'd say too much... but too much for most. Some of those freaky ambidextrous high level athletes seem to be really good the first time they try something, yeah those guys could start with an exaggerated hop, but start small right?

As the center of weight sloshes down into the planted thigh, you time the disc to come through with it. I've absolutely felt it timed right, and in my original video up top - I was sloshing back down with my weight - and then sloshing it forward. Wasteful. :doh:

I'd equate this motion to driving forward from your back foot w/ an x-step (winning the tug of war against the guy behind you) and bracing perfectly balanced against your plant foot.

Yes. Basically you are changing the push off from the rear foot to power you up rather than sideways. Foot and ankle are good at jumping less good at sideways. Then gravity's acceleration into the brace which is really fast.

Here is a center of gravity graphic for a javelin throw. The X-step/Hop is very similar and transfer of energy through bracing (blocking is the term used in track and field).

 

[sidewinder22]

As Consult mentioned above - a big part of the key is timing your motion to take advantage of your moving weight:

Assuming you are static - your center of weight is typically a few centimeters below your navel. When you move or bend, you change your center of weight. I think an upright x-step is easier for some people to keep their center of weight balanced.

By hopping, Brinster and other hoppers shift their center of weight straight up (yellow dot) and please forgive me it I'm off by a bit - I'm not a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist like some of these guys. But you should get the idea: you hoist your center of weight and let it come down into the brace.

As the center of weight sloshes down into the planted thigh, you time the disc to come through with it. I've absolutely felt it timed right, and in my original video up top - I was sloshing back down with my weight - and then sloshing it forward. Wasteful. :doh:

Hmm, not sure about a center of weight. You are interchanging center of weight for center of gravity and center of mass and inertia which are different things.

Weight is a measurement of force. In the diagram above the static weight remains in the feet because the earth is applying force to them. If the guy picked up one foot, all the static weight and balance is shifted to the other foot, so the distribution of the weight went from 50/50 to 0/100.

In the process of bending over(or moving) you will also feel dynamic weight/force(the inertia or the water and organs inside you) rushing toward your chest and head because you have changed posture(what stabilzes your inertia), and you will temporarily see your weight reduced on a scale and then increased and then stabilize back to your static weight in your feet once everything has settled. This dynamic process is what happens in the throw and why hopping and bracing your posture are big power sources.

The diagram above explains center of gravity well enough, it can be a point inside the body and move around inside or outside the body.

Center of mass is the same as the center of gravity in the first two pics, however the center of mass in the 3rd pic of the guy leaning over is where the dot and the dashed line intersect.

 

[sidewinder22]

I kind of explain this stuff here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjxwiN8G4F0#t=5m40s

 

[sidewinder22]

Brinster has more hop than most folks. Is it coincidence that he also throws farther than most pros too?

I think what brinster does so well is follow thru. His timing is flawless as well as the rest of his form.

Don't get hung up on the hop. It might work for some and not others.

The jarvis brothers don't have much of a hop and have nearly perfect form.

What is key here? Forward momentum!

I think of it as different power generators/sources that transfer to the disc, basically vertical vs horizontal swing. I suspect the Jarvis brothers don't hop as much because they use a 360 on distance drives creating more momentum by horizontal rotation. Guys like Brinster, GG, and Bratten don't use a 360 and instead hop higher to create more momentum and acceleration falling via gravity and ground force reaction by going vertical and not reaching back as far horizontally.

Marc Jarvis vs Ken Jarvis:

 

[ToddL]

Brinster has more hop than most folks. Is it coincidence that he also throws farther than most pros too?

I think what brinster does so well is follow thru. His timing is flawless as well as the rest of his form.

Don't get hung up on the hop. It might work for some and not others.

The jarvis brothers don't have much of a hop and have nearly perfect form.

What is key here? Forward momentum!

I'm getting in kind of late here, but I think you've mostly nailed it. Brinster's hop isn't about jumping high and letting gravity pull him into his brace. Really, he's not jumping high at all.
He's jumping forward and creating a huge X-step. It's unfeasible to cross your rear foot that far during a regular X-step, so he just runs through it. (And I think a lot of us do a bit of a hop during our X. His is just much larger.)

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm getting in kind of late here, but I think you've mostly nailed it. Brinster's hop isn't about jumping high and letting gravity pull him into his brace. Really, he's not jumping high at all.
He's jumping forward and creating a huge X-step. It's unfeasible to cross your rear foot that far during a regular X-step, so he just runs through it. (And I think a lot of us do a bit of a hop during our X. His is just much larger.)

I agree with it helping keep balance as I mentioned before, but it does also add to the acceleration of a pendulum or arm speed. We know that the higher the weight(or disc) of the pendulum falls from, the more speed and momentum it has and that the speed of the pendulum can be accelerated(or decelerated) by moving the pivot point. By hopping the disc falls from a higher location, and the body will naturally compress lower and then be able to extend further up and boom!

Good explanation of parametric acceleration:
http://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/
"If you provide an upward pulling force through the hitting area, you can not only create speed through parametric acceleration, but you create a longer low point (for more consistency) and the ability to hit the ball with a lower spinloft (more compression). You will also create a longer line of compression. The first thing to realise is that, if we are going to be pulling upwards, at some point we have to get the coupling point low enough so that we have ROOM to pull up without topping the ball or missing it altogether. In almost all professionals, you will see what we call in the industry a 'power squat'. This is where the player will drop in height. Often, this occurs during the transition between backswing and downswing, but some players do it earlier (during the backswing) and some do it a fraction later."

 

[DougCrawford]

The "Brinster Hop" is incredibly similar to a ballet side chasse-

http://youtu.be/UjFbdeKL7lw

 

[sidewinder22]

The "Brinster Hop" is incredibly similar to a ballet side chasse-

http://youtu.be/UjFbdeKL7lw

Yep...