The Foot "Fault"

[trumbulldore]

Okay.. He's not quite hulk angry but he gets offended if I call him on something (even though I have been playing disc golf on and off for roughly 13 years). Basically what he does is a basic spin putt. His right foot is planted behind the marker. As he is putting he begins to take a step forward. This usually occurs in under 30ft. He steps forward and the left foot lands in front of the marker before the disc is at rest in the basket.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Before long people will begin to think the rules include maintaining balance behind the lie for two seconds. There is no time limit specified in the rules.

Chuck, I understand your insider's edge with the personal opinions of the Rules Committee, but the rest of us are using only the rule book, and its language, to the best of our ability. And, we're trying to get others to believe they can use it, too, without having to resort to a conversation with the RC.

Like I said, the RC has stubbornly refused to put the 2 seconds in the rulebook or Q&A which are both official. All I can say is the RC signed off on my Demonstrate Balance video where I mention the 2 beats/seconds more than once. Here's the thing. The Competition Committee/Director has the final call at events in terms of interpreting the rules. As a marshal (overseen by Competition/Tour Director not RC), I would use the 2 seconds metric if I was observing a player's putting motion. Marshals usually don't initiate calls like this but will second calls and sometimes mention it to a player if their behavior is borderline.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Okay.. He's not quite hulk angry but he gets offended if I call him on something (even though I have been playing disc golf on and off for roughly 13 years). Basically what he does is a basic spin putt. His right foot is planted behind the marker. As he is putting he begins to take a step forward. This usually occurs in under 30ft. He steps forward and the left foot lands in front of the marker before the disc is at rest in the basket.

That's OK as long as it's two seconds between the instant he releases the putt and when his left foot touches the ground in front of the marker. What the disc is doing is irrelevant.

 

[trumbulldore]

That's OK as long as it's two seconds between the instant he releases the putt and when his left foot touches the ground in front of the marker. What the disc is doing is irrelevant.

On longer putts he might be okay, but inside the circle it's all one instantaneous action, but you helped me out with my putting and balance cgk so thank you

 

[Agricolae]

Like I said, the RC has stubbornly refused to put the 2 seconds in the rulebook or Q&A which are both official. All I can say is the RC signed off on my Demonstrate Balance video where I mention the 2 beats/seconds more than once. Here's the thing. The Competition Committee/Director has the final call at events in terms of interpreting the rules. As a marshal (overseen by Competition/Tour Director not RC), I would use the 2 seconds metric if I was observing a player's putting motion. Marshals usually don't initiate calls like this but will second calls and sometimes mention it to a player if their behavior is borderline.

Understood. Also, let me say that I appreciate you weighing in on these discussions. The rule states that the "player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target." That's it.

If we'd like to offer a *suggestion* for those who have trouble recognizing "full control of balance", then remaining still, behind the lie, for two seconds appears to be reasonable. I could see a group suggesting two seconds to the fellow player who, in the consensus of the group, is pushing the limits of the rule; doing this either as part of a warning, or better, as a pre-warning. If a player windmilling behind his marker, trying to keep from falling over, counted to two and then stepped forward, I'm sure I, and everyone else, would call it. Full control of balance is just that; no matter how long it lasts.

Not trying to be argumenative, just *suggesting* that we keep the rules, as written, separate from conversations with a Rules Committee that is not readily accessible to the players.

 

[bombmk]

Chuck, do you reaelly think it it is wise to insist on the 2 second thing, when the rule book or Q&A says no such thing? We have enough made up, self taught, passed through the grapevine rules to deal with out there.

You can be clearly out of balance and still keep from hitting the ground for 2 seconds.

 

[DiscHurler]

From my experience with other games, there's no point in talking to RCs about what rules really mean. Everytime you ask, you'll get a (from slightly to wildy) different answer.

 

[JC17393]

The problem is they won't call it there either. Even most people in Intermediate I've met aren't exactly in touch with the rule book.

Well that is a buzzkill..

The sad thing is he putts worse when he does it. he is quite the character but he is just fun to play with. I guess I'll just do the polite nice thing and be like..."dude, your faulting, just trying to be nice"

I'll disagree partly with the suggestion that people in Intermediate won't make the call. If your friend is blatantly walking through his putts, even a player with a general "meh" attitude towards (or knowledge of) the rules is going to say something. The no-falling-putt rule, in my experience, is one of the first things that all players learn. Even if they don't have the rule 100% correct in their mind, the falling part they know is wrong.

That said, the suggestions about pointing to the rule book and emphasizing that he'll be penalized for doing it is the way to go. If he insists on not "fixing" his putt, then he'll have to deal with the consequences if he runs across someone who will call it (and he will). At least you gave him fair warning.

 

[DiscChainBasket18]

The next time he is getting ready to putt, take your phone out & video it! Then show it to him! Maybe he'll get it then??

 

[jrawk]

I'd start +1'ing him every time he did it. Just say "+1" when the disc is still in the air. By the end of the round, he'll remember it, and focus on not doing it.

 

[ImSchizoidMan]

Im curious, and lack a solid knowledge of the rules. What if op's friend placed a second marker a foot or 2 behind the first and putted from there? Could he then continue to putt as he always does?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Chuck, do you reaelly think it it is wise to insist on the 2 second thing, when the rule book or Q&A says no such thing? We have enough made up, self taught, passed through the grapevine rules to deal with out there.

You can be clearly out of balance and still keep from hitting the ground for 2 seconds.

Whether the RC states it or not, there's an intrinsic minimum amount of time we feel is required to judge whether a thrower demonstrates balance. It seems to be about 2 seconds based on experiment. We've already discussed that some feel that Will picking up the mini doesn't feel like he met the requirements of demonstrating balance even though he didn't fall. The RC declared the fastest of my "walking toward the basket" clips as faults even though I never lost balance throughout the motions. If a player is clearly balanced on both feet behind their mark for five seconds then trips on a rock just past their marker and falls, is that a fault? No, because we likely feel that the player met the "internal timing" requirements for demonstrating balance pertaining to the throw and the tripping was a separate action that occurred later in time. So time is involved whether we like it or not in order to make a call in this case and several other rules where judgment is involved and the rules do not state an explicit time.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

WTF??!!!! Just eliminate all these grey areas and require two feet on the ground for putts in the circle until the disc comes to rest.

 

[JC17393]

Im curious, and lack a solid knowledge of the rules. What if op's friend placed a second marker a foot or 2 behind the first and putted from there? Could he then continue to putt as he always does?

Nope.

PDGA Rules of Play 802.04 Throwing From A Stance

B. When the disc is released, a player must:

1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
2. Have no supporting point in contact with the marker disc or any object (including the playing surface) closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
3. Have all supporting points in-bounds.

PDGA Rules of Play 800.02 Definitions

Lie: The spot on the playing surface behind the marker, upon which the player takes a stance in accordance with the rules. It is a line 30 centimeters in length extending back along the line of play from the rear edge of the marker disc. The lie for the first throw on a hole is the teeing area. A drop zone is also a lie.

 

[charris414]

Here might be the easiest way to determine balance:

You must pick up your disc/mini marking your lie BEFORE placing any supporting point (hand, elbow, knee, or foot) in front of your lie. Then there is no distinction regarding timing at all. The mere removal of your marker should be sufficient to demonstrate balance.

 

[Harrishabitat]

That's OK as long as it's two seconds between the instant he releases the putt and when his left foot touches the ground in front of the marker. What the disc is doing is irrelevant.

Wait this isn't true.

You said the RC doesn't recognize the 2 second "rule" yourself, yet you keep mentioning it.

Disc coming to rest in the basket is not part of the rule and there is no time definition in the rules. Just some vague demonstrating balance definition.

 

[Harrishabitat]

Whether the RC states it or not, there's an intrinsic minimum amount of time we feel is required to judge whether a thrower demonstrates balance. It seems to be about 2 seconds based on experiment. We've already discussed that some feel that Will picking up the mini doesn't feel like he met the requirements of demonstrating balance even though he didn't fall. The RC declared the fastest of my "walking toward the basket" clips as faults even though I never lost balance throughout the motions. If a player is clearly balanced on both feet behind their mark for five seconds then trips on a rock just past their marker and falls, is that a fault? No, because we likely feel that the player met the "internal timing" requirements for demonstrating balance pertaining to the throw and the tripping was a separate action that occurred later in time. So time is involved whether we like it or not in order to make a call in this case and several other rules where judgment is involved and the rules do not state an explicit time.

Who is "we" in this scenario?

Also not trying to be disrespectful in anyway..but what you are doing here is exactly what we have slammed Feldberg for. You are taking your opinions and personal thoughts and trying to say that's the definition of the rule.

The rule is written as it is written. (as crappy as a rule has ever been IMO) there is no mention of a time frame, there is no mention of location of disc and there is no mention of pick up the marker.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The 2 seconds is there whether stated or not. It's an intrinsic value that those who judge the actions apply "naturally." If you walk toward the basket tossing the putt properly from your mark and continue walking like my video examples, you will be called for a fault every time. Why? Because you didn't take enough time to demonstrate balance. The timing is there by default. In essence, there's tacit agreement that the word "demonstrate" is worth about 2 seconds.

 

[JC17393]

Here might be the easiest way to determine balance:

You must pick up your disc/mini marking your lie BEFORE placing any supporting point (hand, elbow, knee, or foot) in front of your lie. Then there is no distinction regarding timing at all. The mere removal of your marker should be sufficient to demonstrate balance.

No it's not. The act of picking up the marker doesn't demonstrate balance at all (despite what the QA says). One can easily reach down and pick their marker up as they fall forward having never shown or had balance. In fact, making the picking up the marker the demarcation line is just encouraging acrobatics and arguments of whether or not one got the marker off the ground before contact was made.

Isn't the simpler solution to this issue to have players make a more concerted effort to show they're in compliance with the rule? For the players who have borderline habits of barely stopping their momentum (like the Schusterick move in the other thread) to stop doing that and learn to putt without having to teeter on the brink? It really isn't that hard to throw a putt within 10 meters and stay completely balanced behind the lie. Unless we're talking about awkward stances (which are what, 10% or less of most shots inside the circle?), players shouldn't have to throw in such a way that their demonstration of balance is even a question.

Seems like the common refrain is always to change a rule to better suit players who can't or won't comply with the rule as written. How about the players change instead?

 

[Harrishabitat]

The 2 seconds is there whether stated or not. It's an intrinsic value that those who judge the actions apply "naturally." If you walk toward the basket tossing the putt properly from your mark and continue walking like my video examples, you will be called for a fault every time. Why? Because you didn't take enough time to demonstrate balance. The timing is there by default.

Once again with all due respect... no its not.