The Hips

[Brychanus]

I think I'm on board with vertical vs horizontal now. The vertical force pushes your hip back to add to rotation. But I still think horizontal is more direct route to the disc which is probably why pros seem to favor it more.

From a physics standpoint, I struggle to conceptualize the counter rotation and the door frame drill. When you watch a lot of pros (excluding Eagle) they don't seem to coil or build tension up through their legs. It only looks like hips vs shoulder tension. I say this because the disc golf throw involves movement. The second you start moving down the teepad forward, it becomes difficult to hit a good doorframe position that seems powerful because you can't apply a good backwards force while moving forward. You also will lose any leg tension you have created before your plant foot hits the ground. Also, some pros move fast enough down the teepad that there is simply no time to coil off the rear leg. With golf I can understand it since you don't move much. In the back swing you can coil your whole rear side and not lose the tension since your feet both remain planted during the swing.

Calvin might be an outlier in disc golf form, but it seems that he simply generates a ton of forward momentum and focuses on stopping at the brace and using that brace force to sling the disc. I see the same thing in Anthon and Chris Dickerson. I hardly think that they can focus on many things while they basically run down the teepad.

Good stuff here, off the cuff:

I think I'm on board with vertical vs horizontal now. The vertical force pushes your hip back to add to rotation. But I still think horizontal is more direct route to the disc which is probably why pros seem to favor it more.

Yeah, both forces should ideally transmit/redirect force smoothly & optimally through the leading hip. This thread on pitching helped me understand the fundamental force transfer better and why you can get away with any range of vertical or horizontal extremes as long as the action(s) through the leg & hip(s) are good. This also explains why you see so much variability in MLB pitchers but they all still get up into the 90s if the mechanics are good:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141084

I think I agree in general that I don't think the emphasis on horizontal forms is just due to more body types at the top level that can maximize it. Simon probably did it to improve his consistency. I think as long as you're safe and not ignoring the downshift altogether you can work to find what's optimal.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to overemphasize any given thing just because it fits well on my own body on in my learning path. Just always interested in what mechanics people have in common and that it takes some creativity to optimize things to the body and task. E.g., I've become willing to accept some more vertical spray in my shots while (re)learning my X in general and have started to change my disc choices accordingly while I'm learning to rein that in. I'll end up using disc choices more like a shorter range GG or Robinson or Tattar than a shorter range Eagle or Calvin. People shaped like Simon or Eagle might be able to enjoy the full range of horizontal and vertical form options. I'm increasingly skeptical that the very short-levered and stockier people can get as far trying to work in the extreme horizontal from my own development and many other case examples. So fishing around in between the extremes is often fruitful. IMHO just don't go so horizontal you miss the "freefalling" downshift piece even if it's smaller in the vertical.

This thread is relevant.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139128

From a physics standpoint, I struggle to conceptualize the counter rotation and the door frame drill. When you watch a lot of pros (excluding Eagle) they don't seem to coil or build tension up through their legs. It only looks like hips vs shoulder tension. I say this because the disc golf throw involves movement. The second you start moving down the teepad forward, it becomes difficult to hit a good doorframe position that seems powerful because you can't apply a good backwards force while moving forward. You also will lose any leg tension you have created before your plant foot hits the ground. Also, some pros move fast enough down the teepad that there is simply no time to coil off the rear leg. With golf I can understand it since you don't move much. In the back swing you can coil your whole rear side and not lose the tension since your feet both remain planted during the swing.

This used to confuse me even more than the freefall part of the hip action and is why my knees are somewhat ****ed up. So I take it very seriously and it's part of why I got so interested in form mechanics in the first place.

The legs are building compression against the ground like running or walking, just more laterally. They transfer forces through your leg anatomy just like running or walking in continuous motion up the chain. That's why the running back analogy to Heimburg works or the Olympic hammer thrower for GG. The rotation is a conversion process and part of blocked & redirected momentum up the chain. SW realized this from golf and baseball and made drills like Elephant Walk and Hammer X to convert it to disc golf.

The coil and torque you build up in the backswing are using the rear leg kind of like a fulcrum rather than "trying" to coil or torque. You can apply a good backwards force while moving forward either leaving the disc behind or penduluming or windmilling it back. That's why it works "the same" in standstills and the X. This is why I don't need to move my legs to generate backswing tension, and when I do move my legs it's what I'm working to optimize in transition.

If this isn't working, you could keep struggling through the connection between medicine balls and hammer tosses and baseball swings and golf backswings if this concept is elusive to you. Most players who stop working on their standstills prematurely (even if they're simultaneously working on an X) are wasting time (though see my comment at the end).

But wait! What if my standstill is perfect (It isn't. Keep working on it. Me too.)? What about those **** moving legs?

I agree that nailing the doorframe idea - however you find it - is tricky in transition (SW made Door Frame Drill 4 for a reason), and is part of why I think the transition move in the X is so fascinating as a sports move. It's really, really **** hard to do it well and especially as you add momentum. I do not think it's a coincidence that people with very clean mechanics moving over and through the rear side in the X are also abundant at the top level, and why you see so many ****ty X-hops/steps at lower levels. I've spent months on mine and it still needs work. When I talk to people already throwing much further than me it is still often one of the problems that needs the most work.

To me, the "compression" SW talked about is now exactly how I would describe it. You get a spring-like compression in the drive leg resisting the ground that unloads strong-yet-relaxed as your weight drifts forward and helps you spring/drop into the plant. The plant leg is doing the same action, but is handling dramatically more force as you plant and sending it up the chain through your hip. Most people either have problems on the top or the bottom or both that prevent them from connecting all this stuff into one move.

Calvin might be an outlier in disc golf form, but it seems that he simply generates a ton of forward momentum and focuses on stopping at the brace and using that brace force to sling the disc. I see the same thing in Anthon and Chris Dickerson. I hardly think that they can focus on many things while they basically run down the teepad.

At their level I doubt they're thinking about much other than making the shot, but they could be asked. In any case on running full tilt, I don't doubt that it's a way to generate the tension in the backswing per where I think your line of questioning is going above, and that's exactly what's happening in Calvin and Dickerson and Anthon. Did they learn it that way in the first place? I'd be interested. I would just say that if you are focusing on "stopping at the brace" without learning how to move it smoothly through the hips & chain and understanding why downshift is a fundamental part of the move, you might end up in trouble at some point. Running sideways 100 yards taught me a lot about backswing tension in transition too, but then again it was also after a lot of other work.

 

[Brychanus]

A little bit off the topic of hips, but at 40 and 50 mph he doesn't really reach back. His arm stays bent, almost like right pec drill, body turns just a little. That sure looks effortless. Then at 60 his arm does straighten for an instant at full reachback.

Yeah, in general players tend to either downscale the mechanics or downtempo the throw (or both). Simon or Gibson downscale. Tattar downtempos.

I've found it interesting that even in MPO a lot of the pros approach their "fully loaded" bow position when they reach right around 60mph whether they prefer to downscale or downtempo slower shots.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Good stuff here, off the cuff:



Yeah, both forces should ideally transmit/redirect force smoothly & optimally through the leading hip. This thread on pitching helped me understand the fundamental force transfer better and why you can get away with any range of vertical or horizontal extremes as long as the action(s) through the leg & hip(s) are good. This also explains why you see so much variability in MLB pitchers but they all still get up into the 90s if the mechanics are good:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141084

I think I agree in general that I don't think the emphasis on horizontal forms is just due to more body types at the top level that can maximize it. Simon probably did it to improve his consistency. I think as long as you're safe and not ignoring the downshift altogether you can work to find what's optimal.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to overemphasize any given thing just because it fits well on my own body on in my learning path. Just always interested in what mechanics people have in common and that it takes some creativity to optimize things to the body and task. E.g., I've become willing to accept some more vertical spray in my shots while (re)learning my X in general and have started to change my disc choices accordingly while I'm learning to rein that in. I'll end up using disc choices more like a shorter range GG or Robinson or Tattar than a shorter range Eagle or Calvin. People shaped like Simon or Eagle might be able to enjoy the full range of horizontal and vertical form options. I'm increasingly skeptical that the very short-levered and stockier people can get as far trying to work in the extreme horizontal from my own development and many other case examples. So fishing around in between the extremes is often fruitful. IMHO just don't go so horizontal you miss the "freefalling" downshift piece even if it's smaller in the vertical.

This thread is relevant.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139128




This used to confuse me even more than the freefall part of the hip action and is why my knees are somewhat ****ed up. So I take it very seriously and it's part of why I got so interested in form mechanics in the first place.

The legs are building compression against the ground like running or walking, just more laterally. They transfer forces through your leg anatomy just like running or walking in continuous motion up the chain. That's why the running back analogy to Heimburg works or the Olympic hammer thrower for GG. The rotation is a conversion process and part of blocked & redirected momentum up the chain. SW realized this from golf and baseball and made drills like Elephant Walk and Hammer X to convert it to disc golf.

The coil and torque you build up in the backswing are using the rear leg kind of like a fulcrum rather than "trying" to coil or torque. You can apply a good backwards force while moving forward either leaving the disc behind or penduluming or windmilling it back. That's why it works "the same" in standstills and the X. This is why I don't need to move my legs to generate backswing tension, and when I do move my legs it's what I'm working to optimize in transition.

If this isn't working, you could keep struggling through the connection between medicine balls and hammer tosses and baseball swings and golf backswings if this concept is elusive to you. Most players who stop working on their standstills prematurely (even if they're simultaneously working on an X) are wasting time (though see my comment at the end).

But wait! What if my standstill is perfect (It isn't. Keep working on it. Me too.)? What about those **** moving legs?

I agree that nailing the doorframe idea - however you find it - is tricky in transition (SW made Door Frame Drill 4 for a reason), and is part of why I think the transition move in the X is so fascinating as a sports move. It's really, really **** hard to do it well and especially as you add momentum. I do not think it's a coincidence that people with very clean mechanics moving over and through the rear side in the X are also abundant at the top level, and why you see so many ****ty X-hops/steps at lower levels. I've spent months on mine and it still needs work. When I talk to people already throwing much further than me it is still often one of the problems that needs the most work.

To me, the "compression" SW talked about is now exactly how I would describe it. You get a spring-like compression in the drive leg resisting the ground that unloads strong-yet-relaxed as your weight drifts forward and helps you spring/drop into the plant. The plant leg is doing the same action, but is handling dramatically more force as you plant and sending it up the chain through your hip. Most people either have problems on the top or the bottom or both that prevent them from connecting all this stuff into one move.



At their level I doubt they're thinking about much other than making the shot, but they could be asked. In any case on running full tilt, I don't doubt that it's a way to generate the tension in the backswing per where I think your line of questioning is going above, and that's exactly what's happening in Calvin and Dickerson and Anthon. Did they learn it that way in the first place? I'd be interested. I would just say that if you are focusing on "stopping at the brace" without learning how to move it smoothly through the hips & chain and understanding why downshift is a fundamental part of the move, you might end up in trouble at some point. Running sideways 100 yards taught me a lot about backswing tension in transition too, but then again it was also after a lot of other work.

It definitely feels like a struggle to figure out what pros are doing. Especially in a sport that is relatively undeveloped when compared to other sports in terms of technique and coaching. At times I wonder if we tend to overcomplicate things or if it's necessary to figure out pro level form. I say this because almost every pro just "figured it out". They didn't sit down and analyze golf videos or baseball videos and try to swing the disc like they do a club or bat. They just went out in field and somehow figured out how to throw relatively correctly.

I know you're very big on the Good Swing, but I think this sport is at a divergence point where the Good Swing might not be enough to compete at more professional levels. Good putting and approach game can help you a lot, but having the ability to disc down or throw farther than the field is starting to become a huge advantage. Even at shorter local courses and tournaments, throwing a putter or mid off the tee gives you strokes on people teeing off with drivers.

I agree with you about the kinetic chain and having to transfer the energy from the ground up to the disc. I think we do not emphasize the end results as much as we should at times. It seems taboo to talk about distance or disc speed probably because of the prevalence of "internet distance" or comments about there being no way that disc traveled that far with that form. Golf analytics look at launch angle, ball speed, club speed, and travel distance to judge a swing. Or pitchers rely on speed cameras to see how fast their throwing. We tend to judge a disc golf throw more on the posture and mechanics than the result. This is valid to some degree, but different people will have different ways of doing things and achieving like results. There are definitely core mechanics that rob players of power, but sometimes I wonder if fixing X will cause me to throw further or just make it easier or more consistent to throw.

I'll slip in a quick sidetrack about horizontal vs. vertical that I was thinking about. I don't necessarily think that focusing on horizontal will definitely cause knee problems in the future (especially if you release and let it pivot). The main bracing move horizontally is similar to cuts that you would make in tennis or basketball or other sports to change direction. The only difference is the rotational component that should be taken care of when you pivot.

All this rambling just to say that I think the end goal of throwing is to reach a certain mph on the disc at release point. That means that working backwards, each part of the kinetic chain must speed up and slow down to transfer force to the next part of the chain. Starting with the brace putting compression force in your leg that rotates the hip, the hips rotating the torso along with the upper body coil from the reachback, then the shoulders then the arm to the disc. It seems that it would be difficult to add external force to this. We should be able to brace and trap forward momentum and our body if coiled should be able to release it naturally.

Letting the body go might be able to allow us to focus on the arm and disc. Since those things must end up moving the fastest in the chain. I've seen a recent resurgence on comments about getting to the right pec position and getting deeper into the power pocket. And looking back, it seems that HUB had that thought before in the Beto Drill Thread he had.
Why the Beato drill is so important

Tristan Tanner talking about the disc being the fastest moving part of the throw. When I think about the pendulum, the arm sort of all works together and lag is created instead of accelerating the disc faster than your body's rotation.


I might have derailed this thread a little with a bit of rambling. I think that treating the disc golf throw like a ball golf or baseball swing, might put a ceiling on max distance. I've found that there comes a point where I don't think I can add anymore, but it's nice, relaxed, and repeatable. I also find that whenever I change my form, I always hit about the same distance. This makes me think that there's a piece out there that I'm missing.

The biggest struggle I've had here and other places on the internet is the prevalence of information, but a lack of putting it all together in a coherent way. This mixed with misinformation and other thoughts that have not been confirmed make it difficult to chase pro-style form. Even on DGCR there are a lot of different pieces, and sometimes the pieces don't fit together nicely especially when drawn from other sports. Disc golf form feels like a puzzle right now. It will be interesting to see when the pieces all fit together in the coming decades.

 

[Brychanus]

It definitely feels like a struggle to figure out what pros are doing. Especially in a sport that is relatively undeveloped when compared to other sports in terms of technique and coaching. At times I wonder if we tend to overcomplicate things or if it's necessary to figure out pro level form. I say this because almost every pro just "figured it out". They didn't sit down and analyze golf videos or baseball videos and try to swing the disc like they do a club or bat. They just went out in field and somehow figured out how to throw relatively correctly.

Sure, I suggest people try that too.

I know you're very big on the Good Swing, but I think this sport is at a divergence point where the Good Swing might not be enough to compete at more professional levels. Good putting and approach game can help you a lot, but having the ability to disc down or throw farther than the field is starting to become a huge advantage. Even at shorter local courses and tournaments, throwing a putter or mid off the tee gives you strokes on people teeing off with drivers.

I'm afraid that you are not fully characterizing what I think, which to be fair you wouldn't know unless you are in my head.

The "Good Swing" includes the fundamental forces that pros exploit and how you can use body mechanics to transmit them to the disc. I'd be curious about specific instances of what you think to the contrary, especially given that I haven't completed that document yet. It includes throwing a disc farther down the field by focusing on the causes and forces involved in optimally jettisoning the disc downfield with maximum force on the disc and minimum harmful impact on the body - with tolerance for individual and form variability.

As you can see, one of the big concepts involves generating (many) hundreds of points of forces and optimally transmitting them through form. Most developing players aren't coming anywhere close to generating the forces (whether your ambition is to be GG or Heimburg), much less mastering them. The reason I will make it public (for free) is because it is an academic effort, and no academic effort worth its salt believes that it is "complete."

It is not a coaching effort, even though I have interests in coaching. I intentionally separated these goals once I started writing. A story for another time.

I agree with you about the kinetic chain and having to transfer the energy from the ground up to the disc. I think we do not emphasize the end results as much as we should at times. It seems taboo to talk about distance or disc speed probably because of the prevalence of "internet distance" or comments about there being no way that disc traveled that far with that form. Golf analytics look at launch angle, ball speed, club speed, and travel distance to judge a swing. Or pitchers rely on speed cameras to see how fast their throwing. We tend to judge a disc golf throw more on the posture and mechanics than the result. This is valid to some degree, but different people will have different ways of doing things and achieving like results. There are definitely core mechanics that rob players of power, but sometimes I wonder if fixing X will cause me to throw further or just make it easier or more consistent to throw.

Here you and I clearly agree. I use these tools and recommend them too.

I never make comments about how far I think a player's throws went. I do often point out opportunities for more potential.

I'll slip in a quick sidetrack about horizontal vs. vertical that I was thinking about. I don't necessarily think that focusing on horizontal will definitely cause knee problems in the future (especially if you release and let it pivot). The main bracing move horizontally is similar to cuts that you would make in tennis or basketball or other sports to change direction. The only difference is the rotational component that should be taken care of when you pivot.

This could be true if enough is going right depending on what you mean. Still not sure we're fully on the same page about downshift despite copious cross-referenced links and visual examples. Curious there. Of course, you can modify swings in tennis and running cuts in lots of sports with various tradeoffs for the shots and body, and the exact swing postures and mechanics diffuse the forces a little differently in different moves.

I am obviously interested about the long term wear & tear potential. I know running backs and tennis players often develop chronic knee issues. But whatever the case, I think we need real data in disc golf for that and thousands of other topics. I wonder if you'd disagree there.

All this rambling just to say that I think the end goal of throwing is to reach a certain mph on the disc at release point. That means that working backwards, each part of the kinetic chain must speed up and slow down to transfer force to the next part of the chain. Starting with the brace putting compression force in your leg that rotates the hip, the hips rotating the torso along with the upper body coil from the reachback, then the shoulders then the arm to the disc. It seems that it would be difficult to add external force to this. We should be able to brace and trap forward momentum and our body if coiled should be able to release it naturally.

That sounds pretty close to the goal, yeah.

Letting the body go might be able to allow us to focus on the arm and disc. Since those things must end up moving the fastest in the chain. I've seen a recent resurgence on comments about getting to the right pec position and getting deeper into the power pocket. And looking back, it seems that HUB had that thought before in the Beto Drill Thread he had.
Why the Beato drill is so important

Sure, try it out. Part of why Seppo does what he does and Simon or Gibson can downscale their form mechanics. Recommend you also develop a good weight shift and posture to help lead the action.

Tristan Tanner talking about the disc being the fastest moving part of the throw. When I think about the pendulum, the arm sort of all works together and lag is created instead of accelerating the disc faster than your body's rotation.

I think you missed the lagged action and tension forces between the elbow and the wrist in that case, but maybe we're talking about different things.

I might have derailed this thread a little with a bit of rambling. I think that treating the disc golf throw like a ball golf or baseball swing, might put a ceiling on max distance. I've found that there comes a point where I don't think I can add anymore, but it's nice, relaxed, and repeatable. I also find that whenever I change my form, I always hit about the same distance. This makes me think that there's a piece out there that I'm missing.

At minimum you gave me a lot to think about

Could be that there's a ceiling there and I agree that in some cases it might be rate limiting, but then again it's harder to critique what parts of the fundamentals are shared if you haven't actually maximized it yet yourself. For instance, there are a few (mechanical) reasons for your own standstill limits. You still have not included significant downshift in good balance with backswing coil and tension balanced on the rear side, and you don't load through your upper body musculature or sit in a posture that gives you good spacing and force redirection in your swing. Unless something significant has changed in your form.

X hop/step does add distance, and more if mechanics are good.

The biggest struggle I've had here and other places on the internet is the prevalence of information, but a lack of putting it all together in a coherent way. This mixed with misinformation and other thoughts that have not been confirmed make it difficult to chase pro-style form. Even on DGCR there are a lot of different pieces, and sometimes the pieces don't fit together nicely especially when drawn from other sports. Disc golf form feels like a puzzle right now. It will be interesting to see when the pieces all fit together in the coming decades.

Ding ding!

You're frustrated. I was too. My solution to that was to go through 980+ form critique posts in a remote exchange coaching session and to learn everything I possibly could, get better, get hurt, get better again, get hurt again, slow down to speed up, learn to move better, and I'm still going. It's frankly a borderline miracle I've come this far in a remote format (usual SW shoutout) and I of course do encourage live work whenever possible. Sitting on the internet reading about it wondering what's true doesn't solve much. Most of my progress was by doing it and getting copious input. I just also really like the academic debates and concepts involved in the throw. These two things can (and often should) be separated.

I suspect that my attempt to integrate it all even on academic grounds will not satisfy you, but that is not why I started this project. It was because I was sick of reading everything on the internet and wanted to do it - and if there are parts I could not, I still wanted to understand them myself. I will share it so other people can think about it, and maybe actually study it in true experiments, and see where the world takes us. And then I'll sigh in relief and go back out and throw.

Thus, I also appreciate our (hopefully perceived as cordial) exchanges here.

 

[RowingBoats]

Man, the last two posts are so interesting to me lol.

I understand both of you but lean towards Sard0nyx's take as the realistic one that leads to throwing discs better in reality.

Brychanus, I appreciate your work too, don't get me wrong.

Low key though, SW22 has distilled things better than I can currently imagine someone else surpassing. He might come up with a more holistic drill eventually, but his drills ARE the swing. I don't think you can 'understand' most of the swing intellectually. And if you do, it doesn't mean you can do it, and doing it is the only thing 99% of people care at all about.

 

[Brychanus]

Man, the last two posts are so interesting to me lol.

I understand both of you but lean towards Sard0nyx's take as the realistic one that leads to throwing discs better in reality.

Brychanus, I appreciate your work too, don't get me wrong.

Low key though, SW22 has distilled things better than I can currently imagine someone else surpassing. He might come up with a more holistic drill eventually, but his drills ARE the swing. I don't think you can 'understand' most of the swing intellectually. And if you do, it doesn't mean you can do it, and doing it is the only thing 99% of people care at all about.

Me too, and now extended to include your reply (appreciate whenever you pop in btw man)

Could you clarify what you mean about "Sard0nyx's take as the realistic one that leads to throwing discs better in reality."?

If you mean "go out and do it" I agree. If you mean something else I'm interested in that. I just want to be consistent and clear that there is a difference between what I believe about how to learn to do it from how I think about the mechanics. Forgive me if those lines appear to blur on this forum at times.

I agree about SW22s work and drills, which is why I'm framing most of what I'm working on around it. If by "understand," you mean a complete mechanical representation with every detail at all levels, no, I don't think I can have that. I do think however that the level of mechanics that links together what SW22 teaches that can be written down and visualized. I find it compelling enough to write ~100 pages about as a scientist, which draws mostly on sources that traverse this site, elsewhere, and scientific literature. I would never argue that it is complete. You should not trust scientists that tell you that IMO.

The value in writing about it remains to be seen.

The value in "just doing it" is very clear (to me).

 

[Sard0nyx]

Thus, I also appreciate our (hopefully perceived as cordial) exchanges here.

Yessir. I'm an engineer so I really like to think through things and understand the concepts behind things.

None of my comments are attempting to be confrontational in any way. I'm grateful for the work you've put in to understand form and I'll confess I don't even know all the parts that we would agree or disagree on. I do know that it's a work in progress since I don't throw 500ft or anything like that. I'm waiting for the day when I do figure it out and then I can distill some more in depth thoughts. For now I've been reading these forums, Facebook groups, watching YouTube videos, and pro form and trying to see the cause of big distance.

I do think the drills are good and bad in some ways. Mostly because it's hard to put everything together. You don't do a bunch of drills to learn how to swing a bat or a tennis racket. You don't drill different pieces to throw a football or kick a soccer ball or shoot a basketball. You just go out and do them. Not saying the drills can't be helpful, but at the end of the day, you have to throw the disc. And I think that connection between drills and the throw is what we're missing right now.

 

[sidewinder22]

At times I wonder if we tend to overcomplicate things or if it's necessary to figure out pro level form.

I agree somewhat. Do you know how complicated it is to describe the simple act of walking? We use over 200 muscles to take a single step.

I say this because almost every pro just "figured it out". They didn't sit down and analyze golf videos or baseball videos and try to swing the disc like they do a club or bat. They just went out in field and somehow figured out how to throw relatively correctly.

I somewhat disagree with this. Most of the top pros learned to play disc golf at a young age which is different than learning as an adult. Ken Climo and Paul McBeth often relate the disc golf swing mechanics to their baseball swing. Feldberg often has his students throw a golf club. Many of the top pros also play ball golf at an above average level.

Some of the other top pros that have learned as adults have talked about their rigorous learning process and studying film. Paul McBeth has also talked about how he still studies film.

Learning doesn't happen in the field, it actually happens after. When you finally get something right in practice, you should stop immediately, hold on to that moment. Most people mess up the learning process by trying to ingrain it right away, but will get lost doing that.

 

[Brychanus]

Yessir. I'm an engineer so I really like to think through things and understand the concepts behind things.

None of my comments are attempting to be confrontational in any way. I'm grateful for the work you've put in to understand form and I'll confess I don't even know all the parts that we would agree or disagree on. I do know that it's a work in progress since I don't throw 500ft or anything like that. I'm waiting for the day when I do figure it out and then I can distill some more in depth thoughts. For now I've been reading these forums, Facebook groups, watching YouTube videos, and pro form and trying to see the cause of big distance.

I do think the drills are good and bad in some ways. Mostly because it's hard to put everything together. You don't do a bunch of drills to learn how to swing a bat or a tennis racket. You don't drill different pieces to throw a football or kick a soccer ball or shoot a basketball. You just go out and do them. Not saying the drills can't be helpful, but at the end of the day, you have to throw the disc. And I think that connection between drills and the throw is what we're missing right now.

It's all well taken and I do not mean to seem outrightly confrontational either. I just learn faster with head on exchanges in general.

I think in general it's good to talk about what's confusing about drills around here. Believe me, I get it. Keep in mind that SW made his all to supplement discussions on the forum at the time, so usually you need to find or ask for the original context for it.

I think I generally agree with SW's points about practice. Most sports do involve numerous training drills. How effective they are always required context.

I hope we continue the exchange!

 

[RowingBoats]

Could you clarify what you mean about "Sard0nyx's take as the realistic one that leads to throwing discs better in reality."?

If you mean "go out and do it" I agree.

This is precisely what I mean, yes. With that cornerstone in mind though, I am not advising that people ignore the in-depth analysis that some (like you) put out here. That content absolutely 100% helps, but I think there is a common trap people fall into with it as well. I know this because it happened to me lol. The type of person that seeks this information out on a forum like this is probably more susceptible to that trap as well, because its not extremely common for people to want to learn a physical skill by discussing it online, particularly using written language.

The trap we fall into is basically to think of the swing as some kind of mystical evocation that requires a ritualistic adherence to rigid concepts. I know how that goes lol, and it's not great. This trap led me to just trying to perform poses in order, and I read an embarrassingly large portion of the written content on this site during that time in this pursuit.

The above is slightly off-topic and generic I suppose, so I'll attempt to bring The Hips into what I mean. If you read through this thread, there is an absolutely insane amount of solid gold. But if you read it with empathy for the various levels of skill that people on this site seem to be at, I think you can see how some of the info would derail progress. Separating The Hips mentally will, in my opinion (and experience), have a high chance of leading one down the wrong road.

Trying to think of the basic pre-requisites to really begin extracting information usefully from this thread is difficult (duh thats why this whole forum exists lol). If I could go back in time and help myself in this regard, I think I would tell myself something like -

"Spend 4 hours over a few days in an exaggerated power pocket pose, with exaggerated wide upper arm/chest angles. Never try to use your arm actively other than to hold the basic framework up. Then just play around. Literally play, but keep two things in mind.

The goal: Try to feel your lower arm accelerate.
Your main toy: The Hips"

Yes, I know we can dissect the above and run into other versions of the very problem I am trying to discuss lol. Yes, I can see an argument that what I just said is "Do the Beto drill". The difference I am trying to communicate is to do it on your own, don't even attempt to look like Beto does in his drill, and don't kid yourself that you will instantly be able to accelerate like him. Just figure out how to do it a little bit, and then build on it using the information in this thread.

I apologize if this is a bunch of nonsense that doesn't help anyone, mostly I think I try to write things to my past self here. For the record, nothing I ever say is directed at people bombing 550' spike hyzers, this stuff is more for people who are trying to feel 'the thing', which I feel like we have a lot of here.

 

[RowingBoats]

Most of the top pros learned to play disc golf at a young age which is different than learning as an adult.

This is an undervalued concept. I think this relates strongly to how I eventually did feel the basic chain that powers a backhand.

I tried to learn the adult way. I'm a fairly analytical person and I default to wanting to know all of the things when I am interested in a subject. The thing that eventually worked was overcoming my adult brain and just playing around like a kid does. I think you would call this "free wheeling" lol, but I took it to an extreme.

Concentrating on what your own personal body is capable of and just running with it for a good while can be very helpful in my opinion. Consuming content from this site and youtube will help that process as long as you don't simply try to emulate what you think you see other bodies doing.

 

[Brychanus]

This is precisely what I mean, yes. With that cornerstone in mind though, I am not advising that people ignore the in-depth analysis that some (like you) put out here. That content absolutely 100% helps, but I think there is a common trap people fall into with it as well. I know this because it happened to me lol. The type of person that seeks this information out on a forum like this is probably more susceptible to that trap as well, because its not extremely common for people to want to learn a physical skill by discussing it online, particularly using written language.

I really appreciate everything you wrote here. Thank you. I also want to acknowledge that I always worry about tone when writing on the internet, and I am really never intending to communicate anything without a positive tone. I do apologize to you or Sard or anyone else if I came across any other way.

As you know I am often pushing around concepts in my own form or in my head, and then you get highly verbal and visual dumps of that from me here from time to time. In a way that is very selfish because it's part of my own internal process and goals at the time, but I am increasingly aware that there are many more lurkers than posters and many of them come here specifically hoping to learn things to improve. I want to acknowledge that sometimes nothing I write is actually intended to help any given person in the first instance. I can do a better job being intentional about the difference between thinking about it and what helps a person do it, especially given the "peering eyes" here. I also believe it is important to acknowledge that not all content is intended for all players and I can do a better job being intentional about that.

The trap we fall into is basically to think of the swing as some kind of mystical evocation that requires a ritualistic adherence to rigid concepts. I know how that goes lol, and it's not great. This trap led me to just trying to perform poses in order, and I read an embarrassingly large portion of the written content on this site during that time in this pursuit.

I agree with you that the throw/swing/etc. is not "some kind of mystical evocation that requires a ritualistic adherence to rigid concepts." I believe that is part of why people can learn very well in different ways using different language and concepts, and that is also why no two players develop their form in exactly the same way. I personally find it very interesting that people might ever get this impression because I certainly never intend that when I write, talk, or move. If they get that impression from how I write, talk, or move, I'm interested in knowing if that's the case and why, too (sincerely).

As I've been writing, I am usually aware that there is probably a very different way to communicate the same thing (and I'm sure I'll keep discovering more).

The above is slightly off-topic and generic I suppose, so I'll attempt to bring The Hips into what I mean. If you read through this thread, there is an absolutely insane amount of solid gold. But if you read it with empathy for the various levels of skill that people on this site seem to be at, I think you can see how some of the info would derail progress. Separating The Hips mentally will, in my opinion (and experience), have a high chance of leading one down the wrong road.

I completely agree.

Trying to think of the basic pre-requisites to really begin extracting information usefully from this thread is difficult (duh thats why this whole forum exists lol). If I could go back in time and help myself in this regard, I think I would tell myself something like -

"Spend 4 hours over a few days in an exaggerated power pocket pose, with exaggerated wide upper arm/chest angles. Never try to use your arm actively other than to hold the basic framework up. Then just play around. Literally play, but keep two things in mind.

The goal: Try to feel your lower arm accelerate.
Your main toy: The Hips"

I like this. In the spirit of looking back and what I would tell a past self, I would also advise any onlookers to go back to the videos at the top of the thread, especially of the ball golfers moving with the wireframes, and basically visually memorize and try to move that way. Learn to feel how and why it gives you low effort power. Realize you can always improve it. It helps. It's a move. Not a bunch of words. Not a robotic sequence. And you can probably learn to do it - better and better over time and with plenty of practice.

Yes, I know we can dissect the above and run into other versions of the very problem I am trying to discuss lol. Yes, I can see an argument that what I just said is "Do the Beto drill". The difference I am trying to communicate is to do it on your own, don't even attempt to look like Beto does in his drill, and don't kid yourself that you will instantly be able to accelerate like him. Just figure out how to do it a little bit, and then build on it using the information in this thread.

I appreciate both your awareness and your point here.

I apologize if this is a bunch of nonsense that doesn't help anyone, mostly I think I try to write things to my past self here. For the record, nothing I ever say is directed at people bombing 550' spike hyzers, this stuff is more for people who are trying to feel 'the thing', which I feel like we have a lot of here.

IMHO there is a ton of clarity in what you wrote and what I think you intended to communicate here, and again, I personally really appreciate it.

This is an undervalued concept. I think this relates strongly to how I eventually did feel the basic chain that powers a backhand.

I tried to learn the adult way. I'm a fairly analytical person and I default to wanting to know all of the things when I am interested in a subject. The thing that eventually worked was overcoming my adult brain and just playing around like a kid does. I think you would call this "free wheeling" lol, but I took it to an extreme.

Concentrating on what your own personal body is capable of and just running with it for a good while can be very helpful in my opinion. Consuming content from this site and youtube will help that process as long as you don't simply try to emulate what you think you see other bodies doing.

I think there is a lot of wisdom here too. Knowing when to put things in the shop and how to integrate feedback for highly analytic adults is itself a hard problem and everyone differs. For the "peering eyes" again, I'd generally encourage that you can almost certainly be more efficient and better at throwing than you are. You need to pick goals, seek input, and be willing to adapt. Not every coach, concept, or style will work for you. Learning to "freewheel" (I just hope we agree to learn to do so safely!) is an important part of learning. Some people need more help just learning what that means and how to do it. Others' journeys may differ.

 

[RowingBoats]

I also want to acknowledge that I always worry about tone when writing on the internet, and I am really never intending to communicate anything without a positive tone. I do apologize to you or Sard or anyone else if I came across any other way.

Nah man, not what I mean at all haha. All of the insanely nuanced analysis is a good thing, I just think it is easy to subjectively wield it incorrectly for people who are trying to put together the basic chain.

Like SW22 said, describing the act of walking would take a ton of text. But most people here can walk around. The basic swing is almost as simple as walking, for real. Truly grasping that feeling, even with aesthetically displeasing form, is such an advantageous place to get to before you really dig into the more nuanced content here. That's really all I'm saying.