"The Method" by Brian Weissman

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

Re: power output of this move.

What move are you talking about?

If youre talking about Weismann's stuff, I honestly dont know anymore. I kinda filled in the gaps and assumed him and me were after the same motion, but Im not sure anymore. Sebastians throw seems pretty inline with my ideas of what works well… not that Ive spent much time picking his form apart.

If the question is about my OLD as we were just talking about then: No offense meant, but 100% wrong question. My move is a bais a balance calibration and a way to discover the power of dropping the rear hip under. Which I have found to be a key part of understanding 'shifting underneath' or whatever it is these guys came up with (I think its the same idea).

Its not about potential power output. Its about finding how you can use your hips and brace to generate power and starting to build some balance behind a brace.

Seabass saying he doesnt agree with the rear hip dropping as a power source is challenging. That is the power source of this drill. It may not be a large power source in a full throw… and it may be an even smaller source in the way Seabas throws in OLDs, but it is the primary source of power in this drill and keying into that can and has helped people make positive changes in how they throw.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

Of note: Im defending my stuff… what Brian seems to be teaching with Jason E sketched me out at times too. Complete containment with no release of the front foot seems unsafe to me.

 

[timothy42b]

4. As for the hip drop portion, I have never felt any real power "from gravity" by just dropping my rear hip down. Seems like it would be a crazy low amount in comparison to everything else we are bringing in and adding.
I've tried and seen others do both and in general this seems true. Rather than say all the details I find interesting, I just want to say getting off the rear leg much more like Hershyzer/pitcher's stride is always much more powerful while also emphasizing the balance and posture going into the move. Since I have a lot of body mass and enough issues with my rear leg already the difference is very noticeable to me.

Looking at The Method vs The Alternate Method brought up a question that may relate to the "different styles" thread.

I haven't gone frame by frame, but this is what I think I see. Brian drops the rear hip hard, forcing weight onto the front brace, while throwing. In the alternate, Sebastian weights the bent front leg, then...then throws as he straightens the leg to force the front hip back. Is this a real difference in sequence and timing, implying a different purpose for the brace?

 

[Brychanus]

I guess just having cycled through alot of moves, there's a lot of sensitivity to exactly where the balance is in transition, exactly where the leverage point off the rear foot is, exactly where the upper body is related to the lower body, what the arm slot is, and so on. Then depending on how you land you get kind of "equal and opposite" dynamic effects as the front leg starts to resist the ground (plus whatever unique funk happens for a given player on the front side).

I'm sure we'll eventually know more absolute power, efficiency, and safety dimensions years from now, but I still always think about Simon vs. Gibson. Even in some of his earliest available videos, Gibson's form developed with a very short plant stride that always looked a little "sawed off" to me and his bracing leg comes in at a slightly more sharp angle relative to his posture than Simon's, and you get that knee hyperextension in the brace and a bit of lumbar twisting from time to time. Simon in contrast tends to have two bent knees or "stands up" more gradually throughout the maneuver and keeps a more neutral lumbar region. Gibson's brace looks slightly more like a "stop" brace to me, and Simon's more emphasis on the "redirect." So I guess I'm still comfortable talking about "parts vs. whole" there even if a lot of the rest of the move functions in a similar way.

What's interesting however is that in the step before the X-step they and most other pros have in common the use of "elevated" or "elevating" posture, which then through the X-step they are striding off and carrying through their momentum. They are still using a pitcher-like stride off the rear side mechanically, but due to little differences they get what looks (to me) like a somewhat different bracing process...

 

[HyzerRoc]

View attachment 338920View attachment 338919View attachment 338918

Those 3 pics are from his introduction video where he does a short drive.

What's interesting however is that in the step before the X-step they and most other pros have in common the use of "elevated" or "elevating" posture, which then through the X-step they are striding off and carrying through their momentum. They are still using a pitcher-like stride off the rear side mechanically, but due to little differences they get what looks (to me) like a somewhat different bracing process...

Thats also absent in Weissmans move and im sure in Sebastians as well as both are worried about getting their plant leg straight. They also look a little stiff with their mostly straight legs even though im sure both are really fit.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm not a big fan of the Alternate Brace Method either. I could feel the lower back extension and not in a good way just doing it slow, just standing up on the front leg as demonstrated without even swinging. That is not how we walk. We don't push up onto the front leg, we fall onto it. Note how I remain in some hip hinge and pivot with lower spine flatter. Sebastian is stuck or locked out and kinked up.

 

[Brychanus]

Are we voting just dont do one leg stand stills ever? Or just dont poke the front hip out in the process?

Didnt Jason have one leg drills? But he was a bit spinny out the front, eh?

I guess Ill reframe it as a positive: I know what I want to work on.

I am aware that some people do not like or advise against one leg drills altogether. I think a little more in terms of pros and cons.

If they're done well they can teach some of the most compact parts of the move, one concept of bracing against force, tightening up the "tilted spiral" in reference to the plant, compression force, and related aspects. They can also use more or less pressure on the rear leg, start with more or less knee bend or hip hinge, and so on. They are also very handy for awkward lies in real scramble situations. If I'm ever in a spot where I can't get leverage at all on the rear foot, I'm basically doing a compressed version of the jumping crush the can drill.

As this discussion highlights, people will vary in terms how how they conceptualize balance and tilt and axes even in a "simple" one leg concept. So there is a kind of pedagogical danger there maybe.

Some people seem to think they are less relevant as building blocks to more advanced form, or even contradictory to what happens when both feet are moving. I tend to think of them as complementary fwiw, and comparing and contrasting moves has taught me a lot.

In some cases like mine the tilted balance and "dynamic" part of the balance and brace itself was impossible to find at first in a small range of motion so I needed much bigger drill exaggerations for those. So like anything OLDs are probably never a fix-all on their own.

Jason's had a bit more spinning in his weight shift the last time I saw it.

"I know what to work on..." That's the main reason I value these discussions. I'd have been lost and dead at sea without a lot of help. I am glad you are here to have the chats and I'm hopeful people are taking helpful things away from it!

 

[Sheep]

This thread is hilarious.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

Ok cant figure out how to quote on the app…

But @sidewinder (ok cant do anything on the app…)

Why the analogy to walking? When I walk the disc does t go 400 feet. When I throw it does. So Im unsure where the value is in that parallel, please explain.

Do you not want the front knee to extend in your throw?

By what mechanism does the front hip clear then?

Thanks.

 

[sidewinder22]

Re: power output of this move.

What move are you talking about?

If youre talking about Weismann's stuff, I honestly dont know anymore. I kinda filled in the gaps and assumed him and me were after the same motion, but Im not sure anymore. Sebastians throw seems pretty inline with my ideas of what works well… not that Ive spent much time picking his form apart.

If the question is about my OLD as we were just talking about then: No offense meant, but 100% wrong question. My move is a bais a balance calibration and a way to discover the power of dropping the rear hip under. Which I have found to be a key part of understanding 'shifting underneath' or whatever it is these guys came up with (I think its the same idea).

Its not about potential power output. Its about finding how you can use your hips and brace to generate power and starting to build some balance behind a brace.

Seabass saying he doesnt agree with the rear hip dropping as a power source is challenging. That is the power source of this drill. It may not be a large power source in a full throw… and it may be an even smaller source in the way Seabas throws in OLDs, but it is the primary source of power in this drill and keying into that can and has helped people make positive changes in how they throw.

In a true One Leg Drill there is no shift, all the power is coming from the internal torque/windup of the body.

The "shift from underneath" requires a shift of the whole pelvis from one leg to the other leg, not just dropping one side of the pelvis which is what I assume you mean by hip here. Technically the hip is the femur and the femur is also half of the knee.

2m10s starts relevant:

 

[Brychanus]

In a true One Leg Drill there is no shift, all the power is coming from the internal torque/windup of the body.

The "shift from underneath" requires a shift of the whole pelvis from one leg to the other leg, not just dropping one side of the pelvis which is what I assume you mean by hip here. Technically the hip is the femur and the femur is also half of the knee.

2m10s starts relevant:

Just a cross-reference that helped me - when you talk about "X-factor" in "inside swing" (~6:44) you can seek the same kind of coil and windup on only the front leg. Figuring out how to find it against the rear foot and also when standing or landing only on the front foot was very valuable in my case.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok cant figure out how to quote on the app…

But @sidewinder (ok cant do anything on the app…)

Why the analogy to walking? When I walk the disc does t go 400 feet. When I throw it does. So Im unsure where the value is in that parallel, please explain.

Do you not want the front knee to extend in your throw?

By what mechanism does the front hip clear then?

Thanks.

Throwing is locomotion like walking. Step and throw. Elephant Walk Drill.

If you push your foot into the ground <---, your knee/hip will clear back --->. Full knee extension doesn't need to happen. Your knee needs to stabilize and resist collapsing to translate force up the chain.

Elephant Walk Drill

Drill to help make weightshift and swinging as easy as walking. This drill really helps on uphill tees or lies like this hole where walking targetward makes it hard to get forward balanced on front leg. If you are walking sideways along with the hill then it is easier to shift forward and...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Jaani]

If you push your foot into the ground <---, your knee/hip will clear back --->. Full knee extension doesn't need to happen. Your knee needs to stabilize and resist collapsing to translate force up the chain.

This exactly. I wouldn't even think about extending the knee, because you definitely can lock the knee without bracing correctly. Extending is merely a byproduct of bracing, something I would avoid in the long run to spare my joints. Tensing the leg, resisting the bodyweight collapsing over it, is enough. You can push the front hip back, but even that I find somewhat redundant.

 

[GeezerGolfDFW]

The more I watch players in my cohort the more I believe strength and fitness must come before technique. I am 66 years old and have been following video instruction since I started playing in 2014. I am limited by lack of flexibility and strength. I am better than many of my age group because my health and strength is better (and maybe technique). Once upon a time I had the flexibility and frame of Simon Lizotte, before he was born..lol. I thank all of you for the videos and commentary about proper form. But one question, are Sidewinder and Seabass the same person? I do not see videos from Sidewinder and Brychannus so I have trouble placing them. Thank you again.

 

[sidewinder22]

But one question, are Sidewinder and Seabass the same person?

Yep.