Throwing putters

[HyzerUniBomber]

Okay, I think I understand... after a ton of thinking on it.

You're saying that if I pull more outward -> inward, I'll be able to keep the disc on a flatter plane and a straighter path throughout the pull, because the disc will not have to come around my chest at all.

Pulling wider should fix the issue that my disc is dropping from frame 2 to 4, where PM's is staying flat through there?

I've been looking at all these videos and it's barely perceptible... like the epsen video:



it LOOKS like he's got the disc directly behind him, but upon closer inspection, he's probably got it more off to his right or perhaps in front of his right pec.

I don't know anybody who currently throws along the lines that's listed as Dan's in that link, Pro or not. That's CRAZY.

 

[Agricolae]

...

I don't know anybody who currently throws along the lines that's listed as Dan's in that link, Pro or not. That's CRAZY.

Watch Schultz and/or Doss.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

HOLY COW, you're right - I'm wrong... Nate's clearly doing that line:



40s in... it's very clearly visible. I've never picked that up before.

 

[Agricolae]

Not directed at you, HUB, but a word of warning ... be careful trying that if you're used to over-gripping, rounding and strong-arming. I was, and the first time I tried it the disc ripped like never before. I also knew immediately that I had exceeded the limits of my elbow (tendons, ligaments; fortunately, nothing serious). Once my form and timing improved, I find it's a lot easier to hit the "power pocket" with elbow forward by pulling in from the outside than from straight behind.

 

[sidewinder22]

That's why I said rear view will show it much better. Pretty much all the top players keep their arm much wider(elbow out forward away from chest/ not hugging themselves) in the backswing. You basically want the disc as far away from your body as possible, then close, then back out. When you see them reach behind their body with the disc, they are typically either turned much further back with the shoulders, throwing anhyzer, or monster hyzer flip out to the left, putting some extra torque on it, or they have amazing arm speed/elbow speed to get it forward.










*Note on what Agricolae said, you never want the elbow to extend fully through impact just like you wouldn't when throwing a punch, you punch through the target, not at the target. Punch through the hit.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yeah, it's varying degrees of angles for each guy - that's for sure. Nate's really coming in wide with a very drastic change of direction in the chest. I'm definitely seeing it now.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

update: coming out wide increased putter distance by 25-50. I had one putter out to 320' in a 5mph headwind. It feels better.

My accuracy immediately went completely haywire... that'll take some adjustment, part of which is probably common with changing to a wider backswing. I'm raising the disc up, not keeping it on a flat line to get my angle changed.

The best part was that my arm has a very heavy feeling to it from the pivot to the hit. When I did get it (even with a high backswing) it was like having a very noticeable whipping sensation.

I won't make anybody look at the misery.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Well crap, after watching AJ and Johne in the video above, I do see quite a bit of the disc coming from higher to lower... is that right?

 

[sidewinder22]

Avery is trajectoring a very low drive shot in that vid. He also keeps with spine very upright compared to most players.

JohnE ends up more high to low due to dropping his center of gravity so far during the throw and leaning his spine forward. He is creating massive weight shift.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

So the goal should be what nate is doing... a nice flat line. Makes sense. I'm honestly surprised it took me this long to really catch on to the wide pull - let alone noticing how wide nate comes in, especially considering how many tourny videos I've watched. I think partially it comes from the fact that I've studied that side shot video so much, which is missing a pretty key dimension.

 

[sidewinder22]

That's why I recommend players record from 2 angles, best is rear/down the line view since that's how most vids are shot and you can see the type of shot, and 2nd best is side view. Top down or bird eye is also a great angle, but hard to get.

I think it's best to play around with all different forms and see what works for you, or take bits and pieces of each and make it your own. One of the biggest breakthroughs I had was trying to imitate Linus Astrom's swedish style, it taught me what stopping or slowing the shoulder does to release the arm and it also helped with weight shift, I was levering the crap out of the disc so hard that it started warping the disc and it was shooting out lightening fast. I started with Shultz's forward press and backswing, then moved to a more Feldberg style and Brinster hop. My forward swing is probably closest to Rico now. It's a constant evolution. I don't think I've ever thrown two tourneys with the same driving form. It's not the best way to develop consistency and my rating has suffered because of that, but that is the price for improvement in the long run.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

... It's not the best way to develop consistency and my rating has suffered because of that, but that is the price for improvement in the long run.

Exactly. It sucks, but if you want to find the best for your style, you have to play the long game.

If you would have told me just 2 weeks ago that I would be throwing putters 300-325', I would have said you were insane.

It took these REALLY painful and frustrating sessions of throwing, recording, analyzing, blabbing about it - to realize some key points.

1. It has nothing to do with throwing the disc hard. The harder I try to throw it, the worse I am.

2. The x-step/x-hop has nothing to do with speeding up the disc. It's all about putting your body into this very specific powerful position, from which you can speed the disc up.

3. The left handed hockey shot hips.

4. Toes only on back foot.

5. How to actually plant my foot to turn against it.

I think that there is a point of diminishing returns, but I'm no-where near that yet. For now, I think it's going to be best to continue on the x-hop because it forces me to drive off the back toe. That point alone was huge!

Changing all of these things together has only been possible because I've been in the field every day (sometimes twice), building on the last session and having this input.

Adjusting form to improve it is something I've always been about - from a more powerful hockey shot, to better rock climbing technique, to skiing... I've always wanted to do the work to get it right.

The wider reachback / MB rail is going to be more work - no question - but it's really clearly more efficient and shouldn't be that hard to adjust to.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Update (7/21/14)

The complete changes to my form have been:

1. Revolutionary - a complete overthrow of everything I thought I knew about throwing.
2. Difficult - I was in the field every day before this, I thought I knew what hard DG work was. It's not really hard until you start trying to unlearn bad habits.
3. Slow - it's very easy to make progress and then slip back into old habits. Daily work reinforced with video is extremely important to make the micro changes stick.
4. Mental - visualizing the motion when you're NOT in the field seemed to help me quite a bit.

I spent the last 10 days in Texas, played only 3 rounds - but did manage to find time for fieldwork about 5 times. Yesterday I played my first round back in CO in almost 2 weeks at Colorado Heights.

The positives:
1. Parked my upshots - no missed putts and almost threw in from 60'.
2. Inside of 20' for almost all < 300' basket for 5 birdies.
3. 1038' down hill hole (14) - my drive was about 600' with a Tern and my upshot was a Teebird that went about 550' (very pin high - across the road). 1150'+ with two shots felt great (even if it was still a 4).
4. Overthrew hole 15 (417' slightly downhill) by 50'.
5. 384' Annie line (20) that crashed a tree 15' in front of bucket.
6. Shot +3 for the round, which I don't think I've ever pulled off in the current basket configuration... only 4 holes of the 21 where I added a stroke over 2 solid open players that I played with.

The negatives:
1. Relearning my release points with the "wide reach" is difficult.
2. Hyzer shots are trending straighter (less right) because the hit is so much more violent that I can't hold onto the disc as long as I could before.

That's it. I'm so stoked on these changes and how much improvement it's unleashing. I'll add some more video soon - I'm sure there's still things that are going wrong, but the leaps in improvement are already making my game much better.

 

[Paul1993]

HUB Advice appreciated

1. It has nothing to do with throwing the disc hard. The harder I try to throw it, the worse I am.

2. The x-step/x-hop has nothing to do with speeding up the disc. It's all about putting your body into this very specific powerful position, from which you can speed the disc up.

3. The left handed hockey shot hips.

4. Toes only on back foot.

5. How to actually plant my foot to turn against it.

I'm a couple days into the same journey you started a couple weeks ago....

With point 1 and 2 taken together it seems to me you would suggest that you learn the power position, reach back, and throw before introducing an approach?

Can you explain 4 better?
Is this kind of what Dan Beto is getting to when he says to 'kick your foot up'?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I'm a couple days into the same journey you started a couple weeks ago....

With point 1 and 2 taken together it seems to me you would suggest that you learn the power position, reach back, and throw before introducing an approach?

Can you explain 4 better?
Is this kind of what Dan Beto is getting to when he says to 'kick your foot up'?

I'll try to shoot some video today to point out those issues. It's probably easier to see it than it is to explain it.

1 & 2 are all about being able to hold onto the disc into the ideal release point:

If you start trying to throw the disc harder, you can't hold onto the disc long enough. Slowing it down a bit, you hold on longer and into the green zone.

4. Sidewinder calls it getting horse-stanced. If your back foot is not up on the toes, you simply cannot drop your knee to initiate your hips opening forward. With your heel on the ground, your knee can't bend and you can't drive any momentum forward.

You can drop the knee if you're up on your back toes, and you can do it better as you keep your foot pointed more forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7LQy1X8taA

Paul has his back foot in that first drive, perpendicular to the line he's throwing on. I am still pointing that back foot backwards, but I am up on my toes, and now I'm trying be up on my toes and keeping it pointed more forward.