To 888 or not to 888.......

[dx_roc]

i like the 888 for no shows.

 

[JC17393]

stupid....its really not a hassle imo. but whatever, its the pDGA so its to be expected that they would spend their time on something like this....

Spoken like someone who has never TDed an event.

The PDGA "spend their time on something like this" because its TDs (the real lifeblood of the organization and the competitive sport) have been asking for something like this.

As has already been stated, it's a pain in the ass when a player up and leaves a tournament without any notice, not to mention it's disrespectful to the TD, staff, and players that have put their time into the event. If the threat of 888 is what it takes for a player to do the TD the courtesy of informing him when he decides to quit a round/tournament, so be it. The sad thing is that it's even necessary, but as a TD with plenty of experience dealing with people disappearing in the middle of a tournament with no explanation, I can say that it unfortunately is necessary.

 

[smyith]

TDs the real lifeblood of the organization and the competitive sport

haha....amusing. the TDs are the most vital part huh....ok. your analogy needs some re-thinking.

As has already been stated, it's a pain in the ass when a player up and leaves a tournament without any notice, not to mention it's disrespectful to the TD, staff, and players that have put their time into the event. If the threat of 888 is what it takes for a player to do the TD the courtesy of informing him when he decides to quit a round/tournament, so be it. The sad thing is that it's even necessary, but as a TD with plenty of experience dealing with people disappearing in the middle of a tournament with no explanation, I can say that it unfortunately is necessary.

leaving in the middle of a round is much different than no-showing. next i bet you'll be clamoring that people who pre-reg and don't show should be 888'd as well.
and to those complaining about 1 person on a card not showing up, does that really throw you into that much confusion??? the rules account for this...you just start and 7 (or 4 +par) him for every hole the player misses. yup real complicated....so hard to just throw some 999s on a card and put the player at the bottom of the division.
have i TD'd a disc golf event nope. have I done something similar for other events yup. and when competitors/participators didn't show I shrugged my shoulders and didn't care.
COI isn't a problem, but people not showing...oh man those are just the worst. better crack down on them.

 

[jobwilson]

haha....amusing. the TDs are the most vital part huh....ok. your analogy needs some re-thinking.

leaving in the middle of a round is much different than no-showing. next i bet you'll be clamoring that people who pre-reg and don't show should be 888'd as well.
and to those complaining about 1 person on a card not showing up, does that really throw you into that much confusion??? the rules account for this...you just start and 7 (or 4 +par) him for every hole the player misses. yup real complicated....so hard to just throw some 999s on a card and put the player at the bottom of the division.
have i TD'd a disc golf event nope. have I done something similar for other events yup. and when competitors/participators didn't show I shrugged my shoulders and didn't care.
COI isn't a problem, but people not showing...oh man those are just the worst. better crack down on them.

:wall:

Run a few tournaments and get back to us. Until then, everything you said has no merit.

 

[smyith]

:wall:

Run a few tournaments and get back to us. Until then, everything you said has no merit.

ah yes, because disc golf is so special that any other sporting event cant possibly be similar or ran in a similar fashion. so there is no way that someones experience in running events from another sport would apply to disc golf...i mean jeez dont i just get that, disc golf TDs are special.

 

[JC17393]

haha....amusing. the TDs are the most vital part huh....ok. your analogy needs some re-thinking.

Again, spoken like someone who's never run an event. Without TDs, THERE IS NO PDGA AND THERE IS NO TOURNAMENT DISC GOLF. Period.

leaving in the middle of a round is much different than no-showing. next i bet you'll be clamoring that people who pre-reg and don't show should be 888'd as well.

Are you actually reading what the no-show 888 is for? It's for players that show up, begin play, then bail in the middle of the tournament without the courtesy of telling the TD (or anyone) "I'm not coming back". Very specific, and covers exactly the issue that TDs wanted covered. No one's asking for more.

If you pre-reg and no-show, why is that going to be a problem? Tournaments have required check-in for both pre-regged and non-pre-regged players for a reason. If a pre-regged player doesn't check in, the solution is simple...his name comes off the board and the tournament rolls on without him. No big deal.

The same can be done with a player who wants to quit a tournament midway through...he lets the TD know he's leaving, the TD takes the player's name off the board, and the tournament rolls on without him. No big deal.

and to those complaining about 1 person on a card not showing up, does that really throw you into that much confusion??? the rules account for this...you just start and 7 (or 4 +par) him for every hole the player misses. yup real complicated....so hard to just throw some 999s on a card and put the player at the bottom of the division.

Again, clearly not reading the reasons why a no-show can be a problem. Players should get par+4 if they are late or don't show. Everyone already knows this. But what do you do with a scheduled threesome that has a no-show? They're not supposed to play with just two in the group. The solution to that situation isn't just marking par+4 on each hole. They need to get someone to walk with them as an official or they need to split up and find other groups to join, all of which have already started playing. That's the pain in the ass part that irks TDs and players.

Ultimately what it really comes down to is simple courtesy. You don't want an 888, show some common courtesy to the TD and your fellow players. How hard is it, if you want to quit the tournament, to go to the TD and say "I'm leaving and I'm not coming back"? It takes 3 seconds and it saves a bunch of people a headache. If it's not worth the 3 seconds of the player's precious time, then they deserve what they get.

 

[wake911]

and to those complaining about 1 person on a card not showing up, does that really throw you into that much confusion??? the rules account for this...you just start and 7 (or 4 +par) him for every hole the player misses. yup real complicated....so hard to just throw some 999s on a card and put the player at the bottom of the division.

Not a big deal if you have all foursomes but if you a have a threesome, you can't do this. You can't just play with two. So, then you have to go find the TD and get assigned to a new group, which has already started play, so then you have to sort through that crap.

"1.6D of Competition Manual: To promote fairness, groups shall not be less than three players, except under extenuating circumstances, as deemed necessary by the Tournament Director. In cases where fewer than three players are required to play together, an official is required to accompany the group and may play as long as this does not interfere with the competing players."

I was concerned at worlds, one of my cards was a threesome. Two minute warning sounded, and only 2 of us were there. Right as the horn to go off, the 3rd player showed up. I wasn't really sure what to do, as we were quite far from the TD, so it would have taken at least 10 minutes to have gotten back to the TD about what we were to do, let alone get re-assigned, catch a group, play the holes to catch up.

All that is needed was a quick, "I'm outta here" before you jump in your car to leave for the day after round 1. That took a whole 1 second to say that. Not tough.

 

[jobwilson]

I was concerned at worlds, one of my cards was a threesome. Two minute warning sounded, and only 2 of us were there. Right as the horn to go off, the 3rd player showed up. I wasn't really sure what to do, as we were quite far from the TD, so it would have taken at least 10 minutes to have gotten back to the TD about what we were to do, let alone get re-assigned, catch a group, play the holes to catch up.

Just for future reference, one of you would go to the group ahead, one to the group behind.

 

[JC17393]

Just for future reference, one of you would go to the group ahead, one to the group behind.

That is the generally accepted means of dealing with the issue if contacting the TD is impractical, but it's not official in any way (meaning there's no officially documented procedure that indicates that is how players should proceed).

There might be reason for the TD to move one or both players to completely different groups than the ones immediately preceding or following the original group. For example, if it was a threesome sandwiched between two foursomes and the TD has other threesomes on the course, creating two fivesomes might not be ideal since it could slow the pace of the round.

Of course, if that is the result of a player no-showing round 2 (or 3 or 4) with no notice, grinding the pace of play because of overlarge groups is just another PITA to justify dinging the no-show with an 888.

 

[smyith]

Again, spoken like someone who's never run an event. Without TDs, THERE IS NO PDGA AND THERE IS NO TOURNAMENT DISC GOLF. Period.

without players there is no event. without members there is no pDGA. and without either there is nothing to TD.
and fyi, i have run many events, all bracketed. so when someone doesn't show up it is far more of a hassle then any dg events hassle. that means re-ranking everyone and then re-organize the whole thing based on that. and believe me the rankings suck, there is no ratings number in grappling sports to make it easy. properly ranking someone requires research. and people get far more irritated about their ranking than their rating.

Are you actually reading what the no-show 888 is for? It's for players that show up, begin play, then bail in the middle of the tournament without the courtesy of telling the TD (or anyone) "I'm not coming back". Very specific, and covers exactly the issue that TDs wanted covered. No one's asking for more.

like i said, bailing in the middle of a round is different than not showing up for it. the point of the 888 was to prevent ratings manipulation, which is why there is a penalty for it. its not for making TDs lives easier. if it was it would not penalize someone's rating for it. What's the title of this article say? does it say "TD's annoyance finally addressed"?

If you pre-reg and no-show, why is that going to be a problem? Tournaments have required check-in for both pre-regged and non-pre-regged players for a reason. If a pre-regged player doesn't check in, the solution is simple...his name comes off the board and the tournament rolls on without him. No big deal.

exactly! i was being cynical and sarcastic. as in, the problem isn't a problem.

The same can be done with a player who wants to quit a tournament midway through...he lets the TD know he's leaving, the TD takes the player's name off the board, and the tournament rolls on without him. No big deal.

and now you are using the rule in a different manner than intended. leaving in the middle of the round is ratings manipulation. not showing up is not manipulation.

Again, clearly not reading the reasons why a no-show can be a problem. Players should get par+4 if they are late or don't show. Everyone already knows this. But what do you do with a scheduled threesome that has a no-show? They're not supposed to play with just two in the group. The solution to that situation isn't just marking par+4 on each hole. They need to get someone to walk with them as an official or they need to split up and find other groups to join, all of which have already started playing. That's the pain in the ass part that irks TDs and players.

so let me get this straight. you say there is no issue when players check in cause the TD can fix the cards. then you say well when they dont show up for a 3some there is a problem. well why would you put a card together with someone who didnt check-in? whats the point of player check-in? if the player doesnt check in 15 minutes before the players meeting or whatever, that should be plenty of time to re-work the cards. if they no show after checking in, ya that causes some confusion, but wouldn't someone coming up just minutes before the tee off and telling you that their leaving? same delay and hassle but you wont penalize them for it? you are just twisting the rule around to fit your desires.

Ultimately what it really comes down to is simple courtesy. You don't want an 888, show some common courtesy to the TD and your fellow players. How hard is it, if you want to quit the tournament, to go to the TD and say "I'm leaving and I'm not coming back"? It takes 3 seconds and it saves a bunch of people a headache. If it's not worth the 3 seconds of the player's precious time, then they deserve what they get.

once again you are talking about leaving in the middle of the round. im talking about not showing up. and still miss using the intention of the rule.

i fully understand your guys point. "the player put a hassle on me so i think i should be able to use this rule to punish them for it." however, i disagree with you simply based on the fact that there is no rating manipulation going on by not showing. your entire argument is based on hassles for the TD, not rating manipulation.

 

[smyith]

That is the generally accepted means of dealing with the issue if contacting the TD is impractical, but it's not official in any way (meaning there's no officially documented procedure that indicates that is how players should proceed).

now here is something the pDGA should be using their time to address. instead of leaving the rule half completed by saying you cant play in groups of 2.

 

[jobwilson]

That is the generally accepted means of dealing with the issue if contacting the TD is impractical, but it's not official in any way (meaning there's no officially documented procedure that indicates that is how players should proceed).

There might be reason for the TD to move one or both players to completely different groups than the ones immediately preceding or following the original group. For example, if it was a threesome sandwiched between two foursomes and the TD has other threesomes on the course, creating two fivesomes might not be ideal since it could slow the pace of the round.

Of course, if that is the result of a player no-showing round 2 (or 3 or 4) with no notice, grinding the pace of play because of overlarge groups is just another PITA to justify dinging the no-show with an 888.

I'm speaking in a broader scope of "the horn just blew to tee off and our 3rd is absent".
Obviously if it is possible to do some quick shuffling that would be ideal.

But if I'm playing a tournament and the situation arises, I'm going to use my judgment, avoid contacting the TD and just split the group.

 

[JC17393]

so let me get this straight. you say there is no issue when players check in cause the TD can fix the cards. then you say well when they dont show up for a 3some there is a problem. well why would you put a card together with someone who didnt check-in? whats the point of player check-in? if the player doesnt check in 15 minutes before the players meeting or whatever, that should be plenty of time to re-work the cards. if they no show after checking in, ya that causes some confusion, but wouldn't someone coming up just minutes before the tee off and telling you that their leaving? same delay and hassle but you wont penalize them for it? you are just twisting the rule around to fit your desires.

once again you are talking about leaving in the middle of the round. im talking about not showing up. and still miss using the intention of the rule.

Nowhere am I referring to the middle of a round. Middle of the tournament, not middle of the round. Player check-in happens before the tournament starts. Generally, there is no check-in before round 2 if it's played on the same day as round 1. The board gets reset, players find out where to go and they go. No meeting, no head-count. I'm not sure how morning check-in is supposed to counteract the problem of a player quitting at lunch time and not bothering to tell anyone.

To the bolded part, it isn't the same delay. Not in the least. You're talking about a slight inconvenience well before the round is scheduled to start. I'm talking about a huge inconvenience as the round begins because the entire body of players is scattered around the course. There's no way you're going to call everyone back and reorder cards at that point. Rarely is a player deciding to quit and leave a tournament moments before a round begins. That player is usually leaving tracks in the parking lot moments after the previous round ended. So the three second courtesy of "I'm not coming back" shouldn't disrupt the TD's efforts to set the board for round 2 in the least.

i fully understand your guys point. "the player put a hassle on me so i think i should be able to use this rule to punish them for it." however, i disagree with you simply based on the fact that there is no rating manipulation going on by not showing. your entire argument is based on hassles for the TD, not rating manipulation.

You quoted the article that states flat out that the 888 code is to be used for situations in which a player leaves a tournament without informing the TD. We're not arguing something that is unintended by the rule behind the code. Yes, the 888 code is primarily designed to identify ratings manipulation, but by the PDGA's own words, it is not strictly for ratings manipulation. There is a viable alternative use.

 

[archmage]

I'd also like to add that even not showing up for a round can be considered ratings manipulation. I know people who tend to quit every time they have an off day. It might be in the middle of the round, or just not showing up for the next round(s). And when they play all the rounds of a tournament when they're playing great, and only one round (if that) when they're not playing great, most of the rounds their rating is based off of are the rounds when they're playing at their best. And then their rating isn't reflective on how they play on average, but how they play on their good days.

 

[Matt B.]

stupid....its really not a hassle imo. but whatever, its the pDGA so its to be expected that they would spend their time on something like this....

Said no TD ever.

 

[doink32]

DNF, but at least leave a note.

I got the wicked bubbleys right at the beginning of the 4th round of my local B-tier tourney last year and had to drop out (the first time in 11 years) I really did not want to mention it to any body so I just said my stomach hurt and I bounced,but I did drop by and tell the T.D. after I took a break.IT is the lest you could do for all of the T.D.s efforts whether you are playing good or bad.

 

[discRabbit]

now here is something the pDGA should be using their time to address. instead of leaving the rule half completed by saying you cant play in groups of 2.

has anyone told you recently that you are completely clueless :doh:

 

[Dana]

Interesting thoughts.

 

[jenb]

888 is BS. People who leave for legitimate reasons have been hit with the 888 and it will continue to happen. It's a heavy handed non-solution for an insignificant "problem."

 

[mashnut]

888 is BS. People who leave for legitimate reasons have been hit with the 888 and it will continue to happen. It's a heavy handed non-solution for an insignificant "problem."

So far you've given one example, and in that case the player didn't end up with an 888 after a brief chat with the TD.

If you haven't been a TD, I don't think it's fair to say it's an insignificant problem, it causes extra time and hassle for the TD and it's just plain rude. Obviously there are times when circumstances out of your control come up, but again, it's not a permanent thing, the TD can replace that with 999 if you give them a good reason.