Top of Intermediate or Bottom of Advanced?

[Treeplant]

Thanks for feedback everyone, good to know!

 

[DanJon]

You don't get better by playing with more advanced players during competition.

They aren't there to give you lessons and tips.

You might learn a few things during the round watching them, but that is up to you to use that during your own practice time.

Now playing casual rounds with better players might help as they could be more willing to explain things to you.

 

[Lazerface]

I always liked to 'play up' in chess, because playing the better competition made me a better chessplayer, and my rating would rise faster. It's a different story in Disc Golf, though... will 'playing up' make you a better player?

So my $0.02 advice is to play Intermediate until you're winning tournaments with some regularity, and then make the jump. Of course, entry fees and other considerations will apply...

As ever, JMHO, YMMV.

I disagree with the "winning tournaments with some regularity". When it comes to the lower amateur divisions I've always agreed with the mindset that once you win, you move up. The jump from ADV to Open is a bit different as that is AM to PRO. There is only 1 PRO division, and several AM, so it makes sense that you move up one you win in REC or INT. Obviously I would take into account the field size and competition at the event, but in general it's never made sense to me why someone would have multiple titles in Novice/Rec/Int.

Furthermore, it is true that you play better when when you "play up". It can be a distinct disadvantage in tournament play when the others on your card are below "your level". I have been stuck on a masters card a few times when playing open - just luck of the draw. I always enjoy playing with the masters as they seem to have a good time, but I almost always play to their level as well. Just a thought if the idea is to get better.

 

[Lazerface]

You don't get better by playing with more advanced players during competition.

They aren't there to give you lessons and tips.

You might learn a few things during the round watching them, but that is up to you to use that during your own practice time.

Now playing casual rounds with better players might help as they could be more willing to explain things to you.

I disagree completely, unless I'm taking your comment out of context. I agree your competitors are not giving you lessons and tips during a tournament round, but that does not mean playing with higher caliber players will not make you play better. It's more of a psychological affect. In some way you are playing against the players on your card (given they are in your division) and I've always found that I play better when the "card" is playing better. Could be person to person for sure, but I would bet that if there were statistics it would show that players play best when playing with players at or above there respective skill level.

With that said, there may be a psychological tipping point. I could see being very nervous if your paired with a Ricky or Paul and that could work as a disadvantage.

Curious what others think on this matter

 

[Timeetyo]

To me this is a tough question when you are on that bubble. I have been at the top end of INT for a while (usually top 8 for most tourneys and only 1 win in a small field) and have also heard the pressure to move up since I'm normally on the top 2 cards consistently. Here are some of my thoughts on the matter and my choice:

1 - Remember above all that unless your rating goes >935 it is your choice, and you should do what you are most comfortable with based on what is most important to you.

2 - I really don't buy into the "playing up will make you better". Playing up only matters the first round after that you are playing with those of your skill level. To truly maximize this, you should PRACTICE with better players if possible as that is where I have learned the most. IMO playing up can actually hurt your development if.....

3 - If you are so far below the "cut" it can actually make things worse in terms of your overall growth. One key skill that you can't replicate with practice is playing with some pressure and something tangible on the line. If you are somewhere in the hunt in intermediate every shot matters and you feel that pressure. If you are well beyond the cash in ADV the pressure is off and you are free to just play. Now this isn't to say it isn't a bad thing - if you value having pressure off and just playing a tourney for fun more power to you.

4 - Nothing says you have to pick just one. There are lots of guys that play up for smaller tourneys then back down for the big ones. Or alternately they play up on certain courses (i.e. a guy with good accuracy but not a cannon plays up for a tight technical course but down for a wide open bomber course) to give them the best experience.

 

[DavidSauls]

2 - I really don't buy into the "playing up will make you better". Playing up only matters the first round after that you are playing with those of your skill level. To truly maximize this, you should PRACTICE with better players if possible as that is where I have learned the most. IMO playing up can actually hurt your development if.....

Agree 100%.

I spent a lot of years "playing up"---either in a higher division, or a younger one---and just got worse and worse. As my meager lifetime win total will attest.

Which didn't make it mistake---I'm one who liked the challenge. And playing among more serious players. But it never made me better.

Forums are full of complaints about "sandbaggers", 970-rated Ams and such, who posters claim are too good. How'd they get that way, playing in lower divisions, is what I want to ask. Obviously the need to play up to get better didn't affect them.

 

[gdub58]

I too disagree that playing with better players make you play better. Maybe it can be helpful to some, but golf is an individual game - you against the course - and what the other players on your card do should have no impact on your game.

If you do let how others play affect you, one could argue that playing with better players puts more pressure on you to throw farther or go for shots that you normally wouldn't (which at least for me does not usually turn out well). IMO course management is a really important part of tournament play, and that has nothing to do with the skill level of the other people on my card.

Having said that, in the final round I will sometimes adjust my approach or go for a putt if I'm on the top card and the person I'm trying to beat makes a mistake, but that's an aspect of competition more than anything else. When I'm not on the top card, then it's no different than the first round where I'm just trying to play the best round I can.

As others have suggested, if I want to learn from those more skilled then I would take a lesson or go do some fieldwork with someone who is good at types of throws that I want to improve. If just watching someone who is really good made me better I'd be 1000 rated by now given the number of tournament videos I've watched...

 

[JC17393]

Agree 100%.

I spent a lot of years "playing up"---either in a higher division, or a younger one---and just got worse and worse. As my meager lifetime win total will attest.

Which didn't make it mistake---I'm one who liked the challenge. And playing among more serious players. But it never made me better.

Forums are full of complaints about "sandbaggers", 970-rated Ams and such, who posters claim are too good. How'd they get that way, playing in lower divisions, is what I want to ask. Obviously the need to play up to get better didn't affect them.

Obviously, everyone else moved up to "improve faster" and left them behind to bag.

In my experience, the people who do the most complaining about baggers are usually the ones who made the move to play higher divisions and aren't really improving all that quickly. Either they moved up out of the bagger's division, are getting stomped in the higher division, and are jealous that they didn't stay where they belong and give the so-called bagger some real competition; or they have moved up to the bagger's division and are too stubborn/scared to admit they're over their head and should move back down where they belong.

 

[ejvogie]

OP sounds like a top 1/3rd Rec player around here. Play the lowest division your rating allows. Win a sh1tload of plastic. Sell it (if you want to). Rinse. Repeat. Move up when necessary.

The main problem is that too many people are playing 1 or even 2 divisions above their ratings. That does NOT make the person who doesn't a sandbagger. I've heard them called "dreambaggers".

Anyone from a higher division who wants you to move up just wants your money...

 

[Steve West]

...but I would bet that if there were statistics it would show that players play best when playing with players at or above there respective skill level.

There are few statistics (from 2014 Am Worlds because I typed in all the scores and recorded the groupings), but they show the opposite.

When one player is better than everyone else on the card, that player is more likely to play above their rating. When one player is worse than everyone else on the card, that player is more likely to play below their rating.

However, the effect is very weak, and may not even be significant.

Certainly, the statistics provide no evidence that playing with better players will make you play better that round. Whether you'll be a better player later from the experience, I can't say.

 

[tdschrock1]

It depends on your region. As a 925 player in my area, I would be sandbagging Int and often has me cashing in advanced for smaller events. In other areas, 925 may put you middle of the pack in Int. I will play INT for large events where I may not know the course.

Do what you want. No pressure to move up until your rating says so. Set goals and get better and follow what your ratings and where your motivation points you.

 

[AndyJB]

"Dreambaggers" is my new favorite term. And it describes all of Colorado...including myself. Rated 865 and have been playing MA2 for 3 years now. Rating has increased about 15 points total. Of course, I have too much pride now to move back down.

I will even play MA1 at big events that offer 3 days for MA1 and 2 days for the other divisions.

 

[joshmo65]

Any Advanced player (or any division for that matter) who gets upset or bent out of shape about a player or players playing up in their division is dumb.

I'm not saying I get annoyed at people playing up and then shooting poorly, but in my experience, the people that play up are the ones who are over-estimating their disc golf abilities. This means that when they start shooting average (or as they think poorly), they start to get grumpy/angry and kill the whole good card vibe. I absolutely can't stand when someone misses a 50' putt and starts bitching and moaning to the whole world about how much everything in life sucks, even though they are an 880 rated player and make a 50' putt once in 30 tries. I'm all for people playing up, but you still gotta be a good cardmate.

Also, I say check out who is playing beforehand to see how your rating stacks up. If it looks like you will be one of the top people in intermediate, then move up to advanced. If you are one of the bottom people in advanced, move down to intermediate. Playing for the win is always more fun than playing on 2nd to last card. Then again, I might be a little biased as I have been bagging all year...

 

[bradharris]

I'm not saying I get annoyed at people playing up and then shooting poorly, but in my experience, the people that play up are the ones who are over-estimating their disc golf abilities. This means that when they start shooting average (or as they think poorly), they start to get grumpy/angry and kill the whole good card vibe. I absolutely can't stand when someone misses a 50' putt and starts bitching and moaning to the whole world about how much everything in life sucks, even though they are an 880 rated player and make a 50' putt once in 30 tries. I'm all for people playing up, but you still gotta be a good cardmate.

In my experience, there are just as many grumpy players playing their appropriate division as those playing up.

 

[kevdiv48]

Then again, I might be a little biased as I have been bagging all year...

 

[Lazerface]

There are few statistics (from 2014 Am Worlds because I typed in all the scores and recorded the groupings), but they show the opposite.

When one player is better than everyone else on the card, that player is more likely to play above their rating. When one player is worse than everyone else on the card, that player is more likely to play below their rating.

However, the effect is very weak, and may not even be significant.

Certainly, the statistics provide no evidence that playing with better players will make you play better that round. Whether you'll be a better player later from the experience, I can't say.

Interesting, and thanks for the feedback. I feel so strongly about it from my own personal experience, but I suppose I thrive when the competition is tighter.

On the other hand, I have certainly had good rounds playing from the bottom of the pack trying to work my way up and suppose the "nothing to loose" mentality can be advantageous as well.

Pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that the "play with better players to get good" stuff is BS, so I suppose I'm an anomaly of sorts.

 

[JC17393]

I'm not saying I get annoyed at people playing up and then shooting poorly, but in my experience, the people that play up are the ones who are over-estimating their disc golf abilities. This means that when they start shooting average (or as they think poorly), they start to get grumpy/angry and kill the whole good card vibe. I absolutely can't stand when someone misses a 50' putt and starts bitching and moaning to the whole world about how much everything in life sucks, even though they are an 880 rated player and make a 50' putt once in 30 tries. I'm all for people playing up, but you still gotta be a good cardmate.

I think the notion of being a good cardmate and not being a grumpy jackass when things go wrong is entirely independent of one's skill level or choice of division. My guess is that that 880 player would be bitching and moaning about the missed 50 footer if he were playing Rec, Intermediate, Advanced, Open or casually at his favorite local course.

 

[DavidSauls]

Pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that the "play with better players to get good" stuff is BS, so I suppose I'm an anomaly of sorts.

In tournaments. I think playing casual, practice, or perhaps even league rounds with better players can be quite beneficial.

 

[rcracer757]

I have been into disc golf for quite some time. Yet this is the first year I have learned about how tournaments are ran. I mainly just walk with my son this year while he was in the tournaments and I played during practice rounds. I finally entered 1 tournament which I did fairly well in considering how I thought I would do.

With that being said:

Every tournament I have been to I notice there are always guys or gals that are sandbaggers and there are always players that should have played in the lower level group. I guess to answer your question. I would say if you feel comfortable moving up and learning from some of the more advanced players. You could pick up on some things you never thought of before.

 

[Stardoggy]

I have been into disc golf for quite some time. Yet this is the first year I have learned about how tournaments are ran. I mainly just walk with my son this year while he was in the tournaments and I played during practice rounds. I finally entered 1 tournament which I did fairly well in considering how I thought I would do.

With that being said:

Every tournament I have been to I notice there are always guys or gals that are sandbaggers and there are always players that should have played in the lower level group. I guess to answer your question. I would say if you feel comfortable moving up and learning from some of the more advanced players. You could pick up on some things you never thought of before.

In theory, there's no such thing as sandbagging, as all divisions are ratings protected (save for age restricted divisions). This is assuming you're playing sanctioned tournaments, of course.