Traveler vs. Resident - Importance of Signs?

[Golden Tuna]

In the beginning, they had stone cylinders buried next to the pins here to point in the direction of the next hole. But, as I mentioned above, there are multiple pin placements for almost every hole on all of our 18 hole courses. So, it takes a lot of coordination and stones to use that method. 1 sign on a tree or bench is more efficient these days. However, nothing is more efficient than an arrow on hole 1's tee sign pointing where to go once you've finished the hole.

 

[JeremyKShort]

I agree and I'm always looking for the map. The last course I played had an old map for a previous 9-hole layout. There was a very large, faded map in a kiosk, so I took multiple pictures, photoshopped it together into a single map, and enhanced the hole numbers, disc paths, and distances on the map. Then I uploaded the entire thing up to the DGCR site for the next traveler that encounters the course.

Check it out: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/480/56ac2660.jpg

I may not be in a position to help with local course maintenance as I am passing through, but I'll upload new maps when needed.

I was about to mention seeing that at Enchanted Lands, then realized that was the course you were talking about. That course is a good example of signage gone bad, or missing. Old signs and numbers from the old 9 hole layout mixed with the current. Some holes very well marked, others not at all. Makes it very difficult to play the first time through. It took a hit on the rating due to this, and def got mentioned in my review. I forgot to take a pic of the sign, so it was difficult with the old 9 hole layout. Glad to see someone putting a new map up.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

I'd always prefer better signage, but there is a certain element of adventure in printing out the map and trying to figure is out for yourself. You play the wrong holes and have a longer walk, but also feels kind of an accomplishment to explore the course. Sometimes you meet cool people as you wander about looking lost, sometimes not, or they aren't too cool

 

[sloppydisc]

HAHA!!

UNC's course has this problem in a really bad way. If you read the reviews a lot of people underrate the course because of how confusing it can be. The baskets have the wrong numbers on them because the course has been redesigned so many times and if you don't know the layout you will definitely miss holes because in a few places you finish a hole and see the hole after the next one but not the next pad.

It's coupled by the fact there's all kinds of paths going everywhere in parts and they had to move 18 recently so the 18 to 1 walk is really long and if you're not a student you have to park and start on 8 or 9.

I've offered multiple times to put up signs or put the correct numbers on the baskets and every time I'm told it'll be done just be patient. So I'm done with offering, it'll either get fixed or it won't. I don't know how it is in other places but here it seems like if you try to make things better for a course you're met with contempt.

I'll back up this story. UNC is a shame. With loving care it could be a really nice course. Little bit of the light blue paint they probably have 8,000 gallons of on the old baskets, couple basket position tweaks, and some updated navigation and tee signs, and BAMM you have an exceptional course with good variety. What a waste. :\

 

[bikinjack]

Signage is like the flower thing in the icing on top of the cake. Without the delicious sugary sweet flower, you've still got cake. I like cake.

 

[sloppydisc]

Cake is better, but crappy frosting can ruin the whole thing. Ever wander around for 15 minutes looking for a tee pad? Walk about 3 miles in the 95 degree sun? It sucks. Do it a few times during a round, and it can spoil some good holes.

 

[DavidSauls]

So my question: How important do you feel accurate signs are on a DG course and to the DGCR rating? Is it important to you that your local course is "visitor friendly", or are satisfied with minimal/no signing as long as the local players get around ok?

I think it's a matter of degree. Some courses are easier to follow, without signs. Very basic signs---something with the hole number on the tee, and the hole number on the basket unless it's obvious, help an awful lot. Availability of maps will make up for poor signage.

It's not just locals vs. visitors either. Any course in the region that I've played 2 or 3 times, I'll hardly notice the signs. But it's quite true that for locals, signage can be the least important course issue, to the detriment of first-timers.

Personally, I'd list problems in the "cons" but not deduct from the rating, unless navigation was completely hopeless. Partly because, in considering the quality of a course, I'm thinking about all players who play there, and I suspect only a tiny percentage are playing it for the first time.

.....but then, there are courses with multiple pin placements that can't be seen from the tee, and no signs or systems for indicating where the basket is today. Ugh.

 

[HeavyCritters]

This is a huge pet peeve of mine because I find it incredibly frustrating when finding the next tee is a chore.

^This

Cake is better, but crappy frosting can ruin the whole thing. Ever wander around for 15 minutes looking for a tee pad? Walk about 3 miles in the 95 degree sun? It sucks. Do it a few times during a round, and it can spoil some good holes.

^And This

I have walked off of courses in the past because it was damn near impossible to find my way around. It takes all of the fun out of playing the round. Completely frustrating and unnecessary.

Maybe I'm just a superficial oaf, but for me it went from a 2.5 course to a 3.5 course, just because of the more professional feel of it.

I haven't reviewed a lot of courses, but good signage would definitely raise my review score.

 

[UKfan]

I travel around sometimes and try to check out new courses. Lack of signage or even better directions to the next tee is a real problem in a large number of courses. I absolutely agree with the op.

I noticed when trying new courses in Florida it was a real problem on several courses I played.

 

[mashnut]

Personally, I barely give any weight in my ratings to tee signs. But then, I'm a reviewer who doesn't believe it's fair to rate a course on just one round. I review a course mostly on the quality of its individual holes and how well the designer did.

Like it or not, signs are a huge percentage of a rating here at DGCReview. There are lots of reviews where a frustrated reviewer docks a course one or even a full two stars (discs) because they got lost. I don't think that's fair but it is reality.

A map is a wonderful tool. I wish that it was easier for newbies to locate the maps on the course pages here. I think instead of "Links/Files" tab, put a link on the course page directly to the map, like the link to the GPS coordinates. (I know it's one click instead of two...but it helps )

I don't think I've ever gotten lost on a new course when I had a good map.

You should be careful assuming how much the things people list in their reviews affect their rating. I always mention navigation, positive or negative, in the text of my review. I'll even devote a whole paragraph to it if it's especially good or bad. I think that's really important info for the people who actually use the reviews to decide what course to play. I frankly don't care if my review is helpful to the local who's played the course hundreds of times and doesn't need to read my review to know what it's like. All that said, it's rare that navigation affects my rating by even half a disc, it occasionally makes the difference on a course that I'm between two ratings anyway but otherwise it's not something I really rate on.

Also, I disagree that you can't fairly rate a course based on a single round. Like I said above, the traveling players who I'm writing my reviews for are also likely to only get one round on the course so my impression after that single round could be useful to them. I think it's also valuable to have reviews from folks who have seen the course in all seasons and conditions and who know the history, but if you only have that local perspective you're missing a lot of information.

 

[magictenor1]

Cake is better, but crappy frosting can ruin the whole thing. Ever wander around for 15 minutes looking for a tee pad? Walk about 3 miles in the 95 degree sun? It sucks. Do it a few times during a round, and it can spoil some good holes.

Exactly. If I can't find the holes i can't enjoy the course.

 

[markmcc]

Also, I disagree that you can't fairly rate a course based on a single round. Like I said above, the traveling players who I'm writing my reviews for are also likely to only get one round on the course so my impression after that single round could be useful to them.

I couldn't agree more. Sounds like you are writing your reviews for players like me.

As an RV'er, I might spend a few months in one place and adopt a "home" course. But much of my play is as I travel from one destination to another. I might get to play a course on two or three consecutive days during a stopover, but more often it is a single round and then moving on.

DGCR is my primary reference for finding courses and deciding which to play. Discussion of navigation/sign issues is very helpful in terms of knowing what to expect or even the decision to skip a course altogether.

Overall course quality is certainly the primary issue in ratings, but signage and navigation is unusually important to traveling players.

 

[Rondpitt]

Thanks OP. My favorite topic.

If we are serious about adding more recreational players to our number we will get serious about course navigation.

Here is my reasoning;

Awareness of DG has grown by leaps and bounds in the last 15 years. I have a theory that the internet and quality search engines get most of the credit. Quality sites like DGCR get the rest.

But accessibility to the sport gets a mixed review. In 1995 when I started playing there was near 500 courses in the US. Now, I understand that number to be over 4,000. So, on one hand accessibility has grown. Quite nicely.

Yet on the other hand, we cripple the number of use-able/accessible/welcoming courses by an overwhelming lack of decent navigation signage on Oh so many of our courses. And yes, some of them quite famous.

Let's make it personal. At your home course --- can a FirstTimer find all 18 tees and targets in order? Go ahead, I challenge to you take a non-discgolfer to your home course and let them take you around the course. Stay with me here. If they can't do it --- then odds are that they will remain a non-discgolfer.

Either our courses are accessible or they are not. No middle ground.

This is Middle Ground;
"Well, our course is fairly linear --most folks will figure it out"
"Aww, usually you just follow the group in front of you"
"It only matters the first time."
"The dummies should have downloaded a map from our club website"
"Can't you just follow the path?"

Thank you again OP. You have inspired to quit bumping my gums on a discussion board and go double check our home courses for tee signs, numbers on baskets, and Next Tee signage. Tomorrow.

Ron "No Middle Ground" Pittman

 

[ACE Ventura]

I'm traveling all the time and good signage on a course is always a great plus, it can be a huge pain having to walk up to random baskets that are closer than the next tee pad and then searching every where for your next tee. I'd say when I review a course, poor or no signage can reduce the score by 1/2 point but if it's exceptional signage then it can boost the score by a full point. Great signage really can help make a course a bit sharper, more professional look, and you can gain a better idea for how you really want to approach each hole.

 

[New013]

From a black and white perspective I don't think navigation really plays a part in the score I give a course but that is something I definitely mention in reviews whether it's good or bad which can be very helpful info. If you read a review and know to bring a map or try to meet someone who can show you around that can make a huge difference in how your round goes.

Though thinking about it if you go play a course and spend more time wandering around ending up at the wrong pad that probably does change the way you feel about the whole thing; and that might subconsciously change the score you give it even if you think you're not factoring it in.

The only course I can pick out and say for sure navigation and signage factored in the score I gave was Avalon Peaks which just had a bunch of baskets in a field and no legit pads or signs. I had a map and still got confused. That's probably the only course I outright bashed and didn't get complaints.

 

[scarpfish]

I think it's Adelaide in Fond du Lac nearby...but the easiest, most ingenious thing I've seen for navigation is painting one of the chains on the basket to point in the direction of the next tee. SO simple, but such a great idea.

Works great on courses with fixed pins. Ones with moveable pins, not so much.

However, nothing is more efficient than an arrow on hole 1's tee sign pointing where to go once you've finished the hole.

Perhaps on Hole 1 its efficient, as its the first time you're looking at it, but by the time I get to later holes, I've largely forgotten whether the last arrow I saw pointed left, right or forward.

That information is more efficient at the end of a hole IMO, than at the start. When I'm trying to concentrate on Hole 8, worrying about where to go to get to Hole 9's tee before Hole 8 is completed is kind of a distraction.

 

[joecoin]

I have absolutely no problem being challenged to find the next tee. It hones my powers of observation. I am not on the course to get frustrated, but to relax. Any minute spent away from day to day drudgery is a good minute, even if it means wandering aimlessly looking for the next tee. Except when I lose a disc in 6 feet high weeds, then I get a little peeved. So I guess I'd vote to spend the money on mowing instead of signage. But then again, I'm a n00b.

 

[simpletwist]

For me signs and/or maps are very important. It shows commitment and professionalism. Every course should be well marked especially if we want to be taken seriously.

 

[DavidSauls]

Thanks OP. My favorite topic.

If we are serious about adding more recreational players to our number we will get serious about course navigation.

Here is my reasoning;

Awareness of DG has grown by leaps and bounds in the last 15 years. I have a theory that the internet and quality search engines get most of the credit. Quality sites like DGCR get the rest.

But accessibility to the sport gets a mixed review. In 1995 when I started playing there was near 500 courses in the US. Now, I understand that number to be over 4,000. So, on one hand accessibility has grown. Quite nicely.

Yet on the other hand, we cripple the number of use-able/accessible/welcoming courses by an overwhelming lack of decent navigation signage on Oh so many of our courses. And yes, some of them quite famous.

Let's make it personal. At your home course --- can a FirstTimer find all 18 tees and targets in order? Go ahead, I challenge to you take a non-discgolfer to your home course and let them take you around the course. Stay with me here. If they can't do it --- then odds are that they will remain a non-discgolfer.

Either our courses are accessible or they are not. No middle ground.

This is Middle Ground;
"Well, our course is fairly linear --most folks will figure it out"
"Aww, usually you just follow the group in front of you"
"It only matters the first time."
"The dummies should have downloaded a map from our club website"
"Can't you just follow the path?"

Thank you again OP. You have inspired to quit bumping my gums on a discussion board and go double check our home courses for tee signs, numbers on baskets, and Next Tee signage. Tomorrow.

Ron "No Middle Ground" Pittman

My experience is that the overwhelming number of first-time disc golfers are brought to the course by friends who already play, and this is not an issue for them, nor a barrier to the growth of disc golf. As they venture out to try other area courses, or eventually to become disc golf travelers, it can be a major hassle; but by that point they're hooked.

Then again, in my non-black-and-white world, there's always middle ground. Somewhere between the few courses where I never did find some holes, and the one with a QR code on each sign that can give you a tour of it, are the bullk of courses I've played.

 

[mashnut]

My experience is that the overwhelming number of first-time disc golfers are brought to the course by friends who already play, and this is not an issue for them, nor a barrier to the growth of disc golf. As they venture out to try other area courses, or eventually to become disc golf travelers, it can be a major hassle; but by that point they're hooked.

5 years ago I would have agreed with that, but lately I've seen a huge number of people out to try it without any experienced player showing them around. I especially see a lot of families show up together and it's obvious none of them have played before. I've watched several of those groups give up and leave a hole or two into our poorly marked course when I couldn't catch them to show them around.