United States Disc Golf Championship 2022

[biscoe]

Perversely, PP probably loses some currency if she wins #6 (in many scenarios.) So long as she is a legitimate possibilty to win #6 (even if not one of the favorites), topping the other 5Xs, it's going to be an easy focal point. Once (if) she wins it, she'll only be as relevant if she is in the top tier of players.

Isn't "having a legitimate possibility to win" the same as being in the "top tier of players"?

I think Paige gains heavily if she wins again. She has not won a "post Covid, sport has blown up" Worlds. There is a large chunk of at the least casual disc golf fans out there who have not seen Paige actually be World Champ.

 

[biscoe]

Valid point. What I'll say about his 6th World's is
that IMO, at this point, it doesn't really make him any more marketable than he already was. But I do think it extends the time frame of his already huge marketability. It keeps him relevant in the "here and now."

There are new fans created every day and their recency bias is huge.

 

[txmxer]

Isn't "having a legitimate possibility to win" the same as being in the "top tier of players"?

I think Paige gains heavily if she wins again. She has not won a "post Covid, sport has blown up" Worlds. There is a large chunk of at the least casual disc golf fans out there who have not seen Paige actually be World Champ.

Yep, I'm in that boat.

I expect to see PP get #6 at some point. JMO.

 

[Rastnav]

Isn't "having a legitimate possibility to win" the same as being in the "top tier of players"?

I think Paige gains heavily if she wins again. She has not won a "post Covid, sport has blown up" Worlds. There is a large chunk of at the least casual disc golf fans out there who have not seen Paige actually be World Champ.

I'm saying there is a difference between the expected performance of, say, Kevin Jones, going into worlds this year, and Calvin Heimburg. But Kevin Jones still has the level of game that can legitimately win. Scott Stokely, say, didn't.

So, if PP has period where she doesn't win any tournaments and doesn't hit lead cards, etc., she is going to be more of a story if she is still hunting #6 than if she already has it.

 

[nothinbuttree]

One thing golf has that I don't think disc golf can ever duplicate, is how slope and "grain" affect the path of the ball after the putt.

Very true, and conversely, one thing DG has that ball golf never can is the variety of lies/stances/slopes that can affect not so much the flight of the putt, but rather the stance, which takes away the muscle memory of the standard 30' putt all pros have done to near perfection hundreds of thousands of times. That is why I tend to do better in my driveway than during a round--especially woods, because my stance is rarely straight up and down on a solid surface--every putt is slightly different.

Even obstructions tend to not affect the flight, but rather the stance, as we mostly try to create a straight line path, because curving a putter around a tree at 30' is sort of hard. Straddling out to a straight line is quite easier with practice.

 

[txmxer]

Very true, and conversely, one thing DG has that ball golf never can is the variety of lies/stances/slopes that can affect not so much the flight of the putt, but rather the stance, which takes away the muscle memory of the standard 30' putt all pros have done to near perfection hundreds of thousands of times. That is why I tend to do better in my driveway than during a round--especially woods, because my stance is rarely straight up and down on a solid surface--every putt is slightly different.

Even obstructions tend to not affect the flight, but rather the stance, as we mostly try to create a straight line path, because curving a putter around a tree at 30' is sort of hard. Straddling out to a straight line is quite easier with practice.

Putting in bolf takes a lot of skill, but the movement is pretty simple--i.e., not compound movement. Disc putting (throwing) is a compound movement (shoulder, elbow, wrists, fingers and legs) unless you push putt or horseshoe putt. So every putt is generally like your first putt of the day. Unless you 2/3 putt which nailing a 3rd putt is not particularly satisfying no matter how good a throw it is.

 

[pmay5]

Answered earlier in the thread. It's to make the OB lines a permanent fixture of the course so that it can be played some time other than USDGC.

Not sure if that is supposed to mean the course will be permanent?

I'll bet the mowers are going to love this! :\

 

[nothinbuttree]

Putting in bolf takes a lot of skill, but the movement is pretty simple--i.e., not compound movement. Disc putting (throwing) is a compound movement (shoulder, elbow, wrists, fingers and legs) unless you push putt or horseshoe putt. So every putt is generally like your first putt of the day. Unless you 2/3 putt which nailing a 3rd putt is not particularly satisfying no matter how good a throw it is.

Not sure I agree with this--even as poor as a putter as I am, once I get a couple in, I do much better the rest of the practice session or round, so long as the ground is flat and I can take my normal stance. I rather think typical putting is very repeatable. Curious to hear other thoughts...

Doesn't seem like the top pros would be near 100% at C1 putting if every putt were like the first one of the day. There has to be some muscle memory mixed in there, right?

 

[txmxer]

Not sure I agree with this--even as poor as a putter as I am, once I get a couple in, I do much better the rest of the practice session or round, so long as the ground is flat and I can take my normal stance. I rather think typical putting is very repeatable. Curious to hear other thoughts...

Doesn't seem like the top pros would be near 100% at C1 putting if every putt were like the first one of the day. There has to be some muscle memory mixed in there, right?

I'll try to explain my thoughts. I'm speaking about playing and not practice specifically. On a particular hole, you drive, upshot then putt (typically) or maybe drive then putt.

The putt is pretty much a one off. While it may be a putt you hit 8/10 in practice, but you only get one shot on the course. Unless it's really bad, the next putt will be several minutes later on the next hole. It will likely be a completely different putt from the last one. If you are fortunate to park it, it could be another few minutes to take that one off putt.

None of this is to say you can't get really good at putting. Obviously people do.

I putt pretty good in practice these days, but really struggle to execute on the course.

During my practice I've started mixing it up by not putting from the same spot repeatedly as well as alternating between different baskets on each throw. Even with that, because I'm putting repeatedly I can get in a rhythm that is hard to repeat on the course.

I mostly throw straight/flat spin putt and I've considered that maybe it's too complex of a movement for me to repeat it in the one off actual putt situation. Also, considering whether fatigue is an issue.

Wondering if I need to find a simpler more repeatable stroke on the first try.

Anyway it's just my rambling thoughts to try and figure out my putting woes.

 

[Rastnav]

Not sure I agree with this--even as poor as a putter as I am, once I get a couple in, I do much better the rest of the practice session or round, so long as the ground is flat and I can take my normal stance. I rather think typical putting is very repeatable. Curious to hear other thoughts...

Doesn't seem like the top pros would be near 100% at C1 putting if every putt were like the first one of the day. There has to be some muscle memory mixed in there, right?

Yeah, I tend to agree here. Once I am in a putting rhythm, I tend to putt well. Seems to be true for most pros as well.

Ball golf may have a "simple" movement, but the raw tolerance for imprecision is much smaller. There is a reason ball golfers keep doing things to eliminate potential micro movements of the wrist. Chest putters, belly putters, putter grips that allow you to lock the grip to the forearm, etc., No need to sell ball golf putting short. They're different sports. Just let 'em be different.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Did the storm already hit? Was the course affected? (Also, hope everybody is ok. Materia, especially disc golf related is a far off second. But since we are in the tournament thread)

 

[Harold Duvall]

I feel there's technique practicing and performance practicing. Technique practice differs greatly between golf and disc golf; performance practice is very similar. Practicing practice is often what I've done when I am not careful instead of practicing performing. Disc golfers do have one advantage over golfers when performing. It feels easier to feel the disc bouncing out of the grip to the basket than to feel the ball bouncing off the clubhead towards the hole.

 

[biscoe]

^^^2x World Champ there for the unaware...

 

[ChrisWoj]

For you newer players, the 'iconic' 888 used to be a tee shot out over the crowd standing in the parking lot and hoping it didn't hit a tree on the way back in bounds to a narrow, sloped landing strip that ran between the curb and the walking path. That 'fairway' area has been OB for many years now IIRC. From that lucky tee shot, a player would play an anny dump putter about 100 feet to the opening for a shot across to the parking lot island.
It was gimmicky as hell, but somehow was famous for being this great design. I need to find an old map, it would have pros storming Innova HQ if they did that today.

What a "newer player" is depends on how new you are. When I think 888 I think of the version of the hole from before what you're describing, from back in the "clowns mouth" era. Which is actually the hole they've turned it into this year, plus 70 feet, with the in bounds strip that you're describing.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I'll try to explain my thoughts. I'm speaking about playing and not practice specifically. On a particular hole, you drive, upshot then putt (typically) or maybe drive then putt.

The putt is pretty much a one off. While it may be a putt you hit 8/10 in practice, but you only get one shot on the course. Unless it's really bad, the next putt will be several minutes later on the next hole. It will likely be a completely different putt from the last one. If you are fortunate to park it, it could be another few minutes to take that one off putt.

None of this is to say you can't get really good at putting. Obviously people do.

I putt pretty good in practice these days, but really struggle to execute on the course.

During my practice I've started mixing it up by not putting from the same spot repeatedly as well as alternating between different baskets on each throw. Even with that, because I'm putting repeatedly I can get in a rhythm that is hard to repeat on the course.

I mostly throw straight/flat spin putt and I've considered that maybe it's too complex of a movement for me to repeat it in the one off actual putt situation. Also, considering whether fatigue is an issue.

Wondering if I need to find a simpler more repeatable stroke on the first try.

Anyway it's just my rambling thoughts to try and figure out my putting woes.

I feel there's technique practicing and performance practicing. Technique practice differs greatly between golf and disc golf; performance practice is very similar. Practicing practice is often what I've done when I am not careful instead of practicing performing. Disc golfers do have one advantage over golfers when performing. It feels easier to feel the disc bouncing out of the grip to the basket than to feel the ball bouncing off the clubhead towards the hole.

I think you're on the right track, txmxer. I'm with Harold 100% here.

In 2017 I wrote an article, trying to establish a guide combining the elements described in "Thinking Fast, and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman and "The Inner Game of Golf" by Timothy Gallwey:

https://blog.dynamicdiscs.com/2017/08/perfect-practice-makes-perfect.html
(note: this is meant to be 3 articles, they combined it into 1 unfortunately, and sorry about the blatant brand callouts - I was sponsored by DD at the time so...)

This is from the second section, on practice structure:

Let's begin with the types of practice most common among developing putters: massed practice and repetition. One of the more common complaints that pops up in disc golf's social media outlets are along the lines of: "I've been taking hundreds of putts per day, but ..." Commonly these competitors are chunking their repetitions into massive groups. A new player feels like 15 footers are giving him trouble, and so he repeats those 15 footers for an hour, dropping a couple of hundred putts on the basket from that range until he can mindlessly zip the putter into the basket without thinking about it. By the end of a session the putt feels easy, but when a tournament rolls around the skill seems to wash away like a sand castle at high tide.

There's nothing wrong with taking hundreds of putts per session. But the practice needs to be varied. Evidence shows that repetition from a single range must be interleaved with practice that varies the range. Taking 50-100 putts at a time from a single range before moving to another range is beneficial, but the benefits are stronger when one also implements a routine that involves moving putt by putt closer and further from the basket. Contemplate for a moment what tournament golf is like: a golfer does not often take 18 putts on 18 holes all from 25 feet. The body needs to be able to adjust dynamically up and down from 15 footers out to the limits of range. A recommendation would be to set stations up at varied distances from the basket allowing you to move putt by putt in and out in small increments. When out on the practice green take 50 putts from 18 feet, and then break it up by moving in and out for the next 50 before moving to another set of massed putts from a single distance.

The benefits may not be as obvious: where you were finishing your massed sets at a single range by zinging in putt after putt and feeling confident and successful, you may find yourself missing quite a bit more often as you move up and down your "ladder" of stations. This is not a bad thing, learners often interpret difficult practice as indicative of an unsuccessful day, but that is rarely the case. Difficult practice is more in line with the mental challenges one will encounter on the disc golf course and develops the resilience necessary to maintain focus on the course through a day of competition.

I do highly recommend checking this article out if you want to improve your practice structure. I'm aware that I'm often quite arrogant, but I'm truly proud of this article and think it can be helpful for any player at any level. I did all I could to pull the best ideas from some experts that are quite a bit beyond myself as coaches and synthesize them for disc golf.

Also note that what is quoted above is just one element of a fuller routine described in the article.

 

[mrclc]

I'll be headed down this week. If any USDGC/TPWDGC participants need a caddy, particularly on Thursday or Friday, I'm pretty good at keeping up and shutting up

 

[txmxer]

Yes to all of the above. For me, I "feel" it when it's right. Happened this morning. But, I also missed several short putts that I should never miss. I am really trying to figure out how to "practice performance" such that when I step up to make one putt, I putt with the same feel I have when I am practicing. Some basics I've been incorporating are to vary distances between throws. Vary directions so that I get unique wind reads although wind isn't why I'm air balling short putts. Throw at baskets above and below my location.

But ultimately, what I'm struggling with is the sand castle. The feel/mechanics are off when I'm on the course. It's like what feels so natural in practice and at times on the course is just lost to me.

I've tried slowing down in practice and setting a routine and I've tried to go the Isaac Robinson route.

Ultimately, I know it's a mental issue. I'll just have to keep working on it until I can recreate the same feel consistently on the course when I go to putt as I feel in practice.

 

[Harold Duvall]

This may be semantics, but I want to feel it right as it is happening not when it was right. Presence some might call it.

Some ideas I play with around short putts.

The "feel" rhythm is what I feel the disc doing, not what I am trying to get the disc to do. The disc determines the score, not what i am trying to do to it. That feel is still a "shot" or "a bounce" just like a long putt or approach or drive or sidearm or every other throw. It was counterintuitive for me for a long time to shoot the short ones, but I finally learned that if I don't, lots of misses occur because that disc rhythm common to all good shots is lost. This is not to say I putt it hard; but the little magic action when the disc escapes is sharp and quick.

I do not visually focus on a specific link. The exaggerated visual focus distracts me from the feel of the disc. It can also make me try to extend the disc into the basket. The problem for me with this is that spin putts by their nature have a pull and the excessive extension only leaves the pull one place to go which is to the right. I still "aim small to miss small" but the aim is with the feel of the moving disc, not what I see.

I try to take delight in performing short putts. I've had seasons of my play where it seemed there was only downside near the basket. If I made it, I simply did what was expected. Everything else was failure. That's an ineffective place to be. And then the protective (not demon) voices in my head would encourage me to be careful," "be safe," "don't let go." For me, that protective voice would quiet when the performing voice would say "Watch this." I think you see this all the time where a player is a lion on the tee and a lamb around the basket. Performing short putts allows me to be more lion-like on short putts.

I try to be "curious" instead of being "in control." Curiosity allows me to let go.

I have to practice all of these things, and do drills that help call them to the fore when I forget in the middle of a round.

Apologies to those who wanted to discuss USDGC Arena 2022.

The courses at Winthrop (and Canaan) survived the storm with only minor damage.

The rocks are part of a multi-year effort. Some will be removed after the Championship, just like the rope and stakes in years past. We are working with Winthrop to keep about half of the rocked areas, and add improve them with native grass or wildflowers. The great reduction in area mowed will hopefully offset the extra mowing care around the rocks.

 

[Rastnav]

The courses at Winthrop (and Canaan) survived the storm with only minor damage.

The rocks are part of a multi-year effort. Some will be removed after the Championship, just like the rope and stakes in years past. We are working with Winthrop to keep about half of the rocked areas, and add improve them with native grass or wildflowers. The great reduction in area mowed will hopefully offset the extra mowing care around the rocks.

I love the idea of enhancing the visual identification of the OB/Hazard areas with native grasses and wildflowers. My theory is that the aesthetics of the OB, whether it seems like a natural boundary, plays a huge role in how many people accept the OB as "legitimate".

 

[pmay5]

Apologies to those who wanted to discuss USDGC Arena 2022.

The courses at Winthrop (and Canaan) survived the storm with only minor damage.

The rocks are part of a multi-year effort. Some will be removed after the Championship, just like the rope and stakes in years past. We are working with Winthrop to keep about half of the rocked areas, and add improve them with native grass or wildflowers. The great reduction in area mowed will hopefully offset the extra mowing care around the rocks.

Harold, great to here your insights here.

I know you didn't ask , but here is a change I think would really enhance Winthrop Arena - since the "island" on #17 seems pretty consistent from year to year, why not make it a true island?

Dig a trench to outline the island, let it fill with water from the pond, then either pile that dirt up (or add bushes) on the green side (replacing the hay bales). I know the barrier of clearing the hay bales adds a lot of stress, and excitement, but how stressful would it be to see your drive hit that mound and roll back into the trench (it would only need to be a few feet wide)? A bridge could be added near #18 tee.

That would really increase the asthetics of the hole and make it a year round obstacle! :thmbup: