USDGC no ratings

[JTacoma03]

I will be very interested to see how the players react to this event being an "X" designated major instead of a regular major. The tour guidelines say that is what should happen here.

I doubt they will react at all. Top pros don't play for ratings. They play for titles, prestige, and cold hard cash.

USDGC has all 3. This unfortunately is another example of the PDGA not getting it, which has been a trend as of late. It seems like there's a bit of digging the heels in by our governing body - which to a point I understand, you don't just change on a whim - however it's pretty obvious at this point that the majority of their constituency supports the efforts of the PT and WT to grow the pro game and create a marketable product.

They're going to need to make a choice to concede some ground and work with the new reality, before they lose their remaining leverage completely. It has become abundantly clear that the biggest movers and shakers in the sport (with the notably silent exception of the DD crew, whom I predict will seize the opportunity and get closer to the PDGA), feel that the PDGA is no longer necessary to attract elite talent and fan viewership. The PDGA tier blessing doesn't carry nearly the weight it did even 5 years ago.

I've consistently said for my entire career in the media of this sport that the biggest problem is you can drive by a National Tour event and not even know anything special is going on. Until the PDGA properly addresses the symptoms of that problem, they're going to continually find themselves at odds with these other movements...and at least at this moment in time, the new movements are winning.

 

[DavidSauls]

The PDGA's position isn't just about throw-and-distance. Any hole that has a mandatory drop zone, must receive prior approval. With throw-and-distance, they go further and hold the ratings hostage.

There are good and bad holes in both categories---and, as others pointed out, using neither.

Outside of Majors and NTs, my inclination would have been to let player satisfaction decide what's good or not---if you don't like the way a TD sets up the course, don't play his events. Perhaps a higher standard is in order for top-level events....perhaps

 

[DanJon]

My issue is that this isn't a new problem with the USDGC. It is one of our sports biggest events and the PDGA still can't get it right with Duvall. The holes in question don't even seem that difficult if you just check your ego.

Overall it's an amazing event that has been run well for years.

This is just another incidence of the PDGA showing that they should stick to dealing with AM's.

Methinks they feel threatened by these new tours (future money) and this is their way of dealing with that.

It's like dealing with children.

 

[DiscHuker]

Huh?

Jamie,

What topic have we been "notably silent" on?
Also, does the fact that we don't have public fights with the PDGA necessarily mean that we are trying to "get closer" to them?

Dixon

 

[JohtoVillage]

I doubt they will react at all. Top pros don't play for ratings. They play for titles, prestige, and cold hard cash.

I don't care about ratings, I think my point was that I am curious to see how people will react to the X designation being slapped on there. I completely agree with your overall point. Its frustrating to see this for sure, and I think its silly that one of our premier events would be slapped with an X designation. There is no need for this event to have an asterisk.

 

[krupicka]

Pros might not care about ratings, but fans do. They want to know how high a round was rated.

 

[sharris]

It has become abundantly clear that the biggest movers and shakers in the sport (with the notably silent exception of the DD crew, whom I predict will seize the opportunity and get closer to the PDGA), feel that the PDGA is no longer necessary to attract elite talent and fan viewership. The PDGA tier blessing doesn't carry nearly the weight it did even 5 years ago.

Not sure what throwing DD under the bus has to do with anything.

 

[Lazerface]

It has become abundantly clear that the biggest movers and shakers in the sport (with the notably silent exception of the DD crew, whom I predict will seize the opportunity and get closer to the PDGA), feel that the PDGA is no longer necessary to attract elite talent and fan viewership. The PDGA tier blessing doesn't carry nearly the weight it did even 5 years ago.

Not sure what throwing DD under the bus has to do with anything.

I don't think his intention was to throw them under the bus, but I am also unsure what DD has to do with anything. I'm not sure they have had any reason to voice a concern/opinion on any of these recent "shake ups". I'm assuming this was innocent speculation from Jamie though.

I'm all about a professional tour breaking away, but also working with the PDGA in some capacity - rules and player stats mostly, but I would likely get over it pretty quickly if there was a 100% separation assuming it was done right.

It's too bad DD is not the ones trying to break ground with a professional tour because they know how to run an event and certainly have experience getting communities behind them (I realize the inherent advantage of being headquarter in a small city). From a business prospective though, it's probably best they keep selling the crap out of Frisbees and running great tournaments and capitalize on the continued growth.

 

[DiscLoser1]

Score one for Chuck Kennedy, Brian Graham, and co. What a bunch of clueless nonsense.

I thought disc golf was touted as an inclusive sport? An OB rope with stroke and distance is not that far removed from a ridiculously treed fairway and an unfortunate tree kick. Why can't OB designs stand side by side with whatever the PDGA considers "fair"?

Digging their heals in, indeed. They're going to drive the money and movers away from the sport, and keep control and thus keep disc golf as small and unknown as it has always been.

 

[Steve West]

Pros might not care about ratings, but fans do. They want to know how high a round was rated.

Are you referring to: "In a spirit of cooperation, the PDGA will show the USDGC rounds in the Official Results page, however the rounds will be excluded from the players' rating calculation." from Harold's announcement?

 

[lyleoross]

Hey Lazer,

I understand the point you're making, but my perspective is different.

Here is the link again to your article: http://usdgc.com/?p=988

What this article says to me is that if you run it, you can wind up with a seven or a twelve, but if you play it safe, lay up, toss in, and putt out, well, you're a par 3. That is, if every player does this, the hole becomes non-punitive. It is just a fairly boring par 3 hole that pretty much any decent player can par, but few can birdy because of the structure of the hole.

So you're correct, players are taking a very stupid approach to the hole. Once they figure it out, the nature of the hole will become clear, and it will be the most mundane of par 3 holes.

Setting that aside, the PDGA didn't decide on no stroke or distance on their own. HD has been using it at USDGC for years. It was only after a great deal of complaining after Ledgestone in 2015 that they acted. You can argue that they should now ignore the requests they got from players, or you can argue that because it's HD, well he should get a pass. But wait, that's exactly what they did. Because it's HD and USDGC, they let him keep stroke and distance on these two holes, even though many players have complained about it. But in order to protect a minor bit for their membership, they've said we won't rate due to that. And that isn't good enough for Harold who is now complaining, even though he got what he wanted, just not all of it.

Again, I'm fine with stoke and distance on these holes, and I'm fine that HD got what he wanted, I think the ratings thing is a minor issue that HD is leveraging.

 

[tom12003]

From last year's stats both holes 13 and 17 show very high scoring separation (what many course designers/TDs relish). Hole 13 showed 53% of the field under par, 17% at par, 11% bogies, 7% double bogies, and 12% triple bogies or worse. Hole 17 had 24% birdies, 40% pars, 12% bogies, 13% double bogies, 3% triple bogies, and 7% quad bogies or worse. My guess is that if you strip out the performance edition players from last year's stats, the pros would have had less of a scoring separation on these 2 holes. There would still have been several blow ups; some may have been caused by taking majestic risks to gain on the field that just backfired; these are what we hear of. These few outliers really do not affect ratings.

 

[biscoe]

By many measures Hole 17 at the USDGC is the most successful hole in the sport. No other hole attracts as much attention, no other hole is more dramatic to watch, etc, etc.

 

[Lazerface]

Hey Lazer,

I understand the point you're making, but my perspective is different.

Here is the link again to your article: http://usdgc.com/?p=988

What this article says to me is that if you run it, you can wind up with a seven or a twelve, but if you play it safe, lay up, toss in, and putt out, well, you're a par 3. That is, if every player does this, the hole becomes non-punitive. It is just a fairly boring par 3 hole that pretty much any decent player can par, but few can birdy because of the structure of the hole.

So you're correct, players are taking a very stupid approach to the hole. Once they figure it out, the nature of the hole will become clear, and it will be the most mundane of par 3 holes.

Setting that aside, the PDGA didn't decide on no stroke or distance on their own. HD has been using it at USDGC for years. It was only after a great deal of complaining after Ledgestone in 2015 that they acted. You can argue that they should now ignore the requests they got from players, or you can argue that because it's HD, well he should get a pass. But wait, that's exactly what they did. Because it's HD and USDGC, they let him keep stroke and distance on these two holes, even though many players have complained about it. But in order to protect a minor bit for their membership, they've said we won't rate due to that. And that isn't good enough for Harold who is now complaining, even though he got what he wanted, just not all of it.

Again, I'm fine with stoke and distance on these holes, and I'm fine that HD got what he wanted, I think the ratings thing is a minor issue that HD

Damn I knew you were smart and would draw the mundane conclusion from my argument. However, I think the hole would still play a huge role when it came down to the wire and it makes stategic sense to go for it if you need strokes. The day every player takes the smart route will NEVER happen. You would think that over time players would see their competition laying up and it would trend that way but egos are a hard force to put in check. I will concede that it may be the best spectator hole ever but not the best hole ever. Once the players start laying up just widen the green and start the process over. Lol

 

[JTacoma03]

Ok - hold on - pump the brakes guys. Just because I say somebody's name doesn't mean I'm calling them out or "throwing them under the bus" - this situation doesn't even bring up that scenario.

Let's put the pitchforks down for a sec. I'm just speculating on a business move, and FWIW one that I think would be smart for them. They're already clearly favored (allowed to host Worlds and a NT at essentially the same venues, which to my knowledge has never happened before) and as Rusco is no dummy, I expect him to leverage a potential vaccuum that may be created if this crack turns into a rift (between the PDGA and other notable TD's/Promoters).

 

[paulw]

I had to look up what basket was 13 -- it's the "888" parking lot basket. Stroke and distance on that basket and 17 seem challenging -- from an on line spectator point of view, 13 is an awkward basket to watch. The drive seems awkward, the rip-rap ditch at the end of the "fairway" as the driveway opens up onto the parking lot seems awkward to throw from even though that's everyone's favorite spot. The curb makes skipping onto the green seem awkward. I realize that the players and the on site spectators like this basket -- I'm neither and think it's meh.

(That doesn't make it bad -- I'm not there.) I love watching 5 and 17 more than most all of the other baskets. 18's not a nail biter either -- seems so anti-climatic after 17 just shook everything up. Put 18 about 15' off the ground about 30' from the water -- now we're having fun!! Someone would can a long one for three after taking an 8 on 17 to bring them within one throw . .. . I know -- "too putt putt-like". Meh -- make 'em sweat. Just saying.

Ratings -- don't really care at this point for this group, the top guys ratings really should fade away since they're that good.

 

[onemilemore]

Found this tidbit from the "Understanding the 2016 PDGA Tour Standards" article earlier this year to be interesting:

"The expectation when a T&D waiver was granted was that T&D would be used on one, maybe two holes, perhaps in an effort to duplicate the dynamics of the now legendary island holes at the USDGC."

Now these holes are coming up for debate when they were used as the standard for the exemption before? That doesn't add up.

 

[BionicRib]

Found this tidbit from the "Understanding the 2016 PDGA Tour Standards" article earlier this year to be interesting:

"The expectation when a T&D waiver was granted was that T&D would be used on one, maybe two holes, perhaps in an effort to duplicate the dynamics of the now legendary island holes at the USDGC."

Now these holes are coming up for debate when they were used as the standard for the exemption before? That doesn't add up.

...lol.....that is interesting. Good catch

 

[krupicka]

Pros might not care about ratings, but fans do. They want to know how high a round was rated.

Are you referring to: "In a spirit of cooperation, the PDGA will show the USDGC rounds in the Official Results page, however the rounds will be excluded from the players' rating calculation." from Harold's announcement?

I take that to mean that the scores will be shown like any other PDGA event, but no ratings will be given. I suppose that could also be interpreted that round ratings will be shown for the Official Results, but not used to calculate a player's rating. (That might have been done for USDGC Perf Ed 2012 IIRC). That probably could use some clarification.

 

[JohtoVillage]

I take that to mean that the scores will be shown like any other PDGA event, but no ratings will be given. I suppose that could also be interpreted that round ratings will be shown for the Official Results, but not used to calculate a player's rating. (That might have been done for USDGC Perf Ed 2012 IIRC). That probably could use some clarification.

I had the same confusion there. If we show ratings on the results page though, but they don't count...that just seems a little strange.

Also, just to note, it looks like Hole 10 is still stroke and distance as well. There is a drop zone for the tee shot going OB, but its still 330' to the pin from there and its S/D from there.