What should happen to the "quitters"

[garublador]

I understand for actual competition and within the DG community, this doesn't matter. But if players have inflated ratings due to DNFing bad rounds, this undermines the validity of the ratings of those whom played out their tournaments to those outside of the sport and gives those outsiders the feeling that DG is not a real sport. (Go Run On Sentence! ) Look at the "Steroids" era of baseball. For people who don't really follow baseball closely, the entire era is tainted.

People outside of the sport don't care about ratings. They don't even know what the number means. You hear about "World Champion Avery Jenkins" or "12 time World Champion Ken Climo" not about "1040 Rated Shane Seal." Even with baseball I know who all those players are that have been accused of juicing and what they're known for, but I couldn't tell you any of the pitchers' ERA's or the batters' batting averages.

So I'm thinking we'll need to figure out some sort of automated ratings reduction and/or disciplinary action along the lines of suspension to discourage worry-free DNFing.

But you can't explain why the tournaments or sponsors can't just figure it out on their own. The PDGA can't effectively fix problems that are outside the scope of the PDGA. Trying to make rules that do that just means you end up with a bunch of extra rules that will do more harm than good.

 

[mfcastillo17]

As weak sauce as it is for people to DNF to save ratings, I think it is equally weak for those who only play 2 tournaments a year on their home course and brag about their 1000 rating. I enjoy the rating system and think it is an excellent way to measure progress. I also dislike when people dump on the system. It certainly is not fool proof and perfect, but that would be near impossible considering all the variables that must be taken in to account to properly try to measure the skill level of players.

 

[jgros079]

All at Highbridge. No chance going back though at least PDGA sanctioned.

Chuck, why no more sanctioned NT events at Highbridge?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Money owed to PDGA.

 

[_MTL_]

People outside of the sport don't care about ratings. They don't even know what the number means. You hear about "World Champion Avery Jenkins" or "12 time World Champion Ken Climo" not about "1040 Rated Shane Seal."

It's not that people outside of the sport don't care about ratings - it's they don't understand them.

People understand golf. Golf uses handicapping. But the reason why handicapping works is par is standardized. People care about other people's handicaps. When I tell people I play golf they ask me "what is your handicap?" When I tell people I play disc golf, they don't say "oh what's your rating?" when basically, it's the same question.

Our rating system is really well thought out and most of the little things that people don't get - such as why a stroke isn't always worth 10 points - makes complete sense when you really think about them. Granted there are obvious flaws and obvious things that make us all laugh, but nothing is perfect.

But the fact is people outside of disc golf don't have any knowledge of it at all and until we find a way to get it in conjuction with handicapping, is pretty much useless information to 99% of the population.

 

[Johnny Conservative]

It's not that people outside of the sport don't care about ratings - it's they don't understand them.

People understand golf. Golf uses handicapping. But the reason why handicapping works is par is standardized.

Our rating system is really well thought out and most of the little things that people don't get - such as why a stroke isn't always worth 10 points - makes complete sense when you really think about them. Granted there are obvious flaws and obvious things that make us all laugh, but nothing is perfect.

But the fact is people outside of disc golf don't have any knowledge of it at all and until we find a way to get it in conjuction with handicapping, is pretty much useless information to 99% of the population.

I am in the sport and I really dont understand how the rating system works. Wouldn't a less complicated system be better? Or is it less complicated than I think it is? It seems everytime I try and estimate what my rating will be, I am off anywhere between 2-10 plus/minus points.

 

[Cgkdisc]

For the top players in ball golf and disc golf, you refer to their World Rankings not their handicaps or ratings. For competitive rec players in a sport, even those playing them don't always understand their ratings systems. Do you know what a 3.5 tennis player means and the highest rating possible? Did you know that a 4.0 woman tennis player is not the same skill level as a 4.0 man?

The sport of Orienteering is very similar to disc golf in that individuals traverse different courses with all types of terrain and challenges in competition. Check out their points formula for rankings. If I said I was a 950 runner, would you know what that meant? http://iof.6prog.org/IOF_Documents/FootO/spec2012.htm

 

[_MTL_]

I am in the sport and I really dont understand how the rating system works. Wouldn't a less complicated system be better? Or is it less complicated than I think it is? It seems everytime I try and estimate what my rating will be, I am off anywhere between 2-10 plus/minus points.

At one point, it was a lot less complicated. But then there were way too many what ifs that popped up. They have made changes and each change helped a problem but caused another.

In the past each round would be looked at as individual rounds. What the issue with this would be if you played the same exact course 4 times, a 54 could be rated 1010 and then it could be rated 990 the very next round even if conditions were identical. Also, if it was a situation where pros played the course in round 1 and then ams played it round 2, there were VAST differences in the ratings. It was 20 - 30 points worse for the ams.

So then they changed it to anytime a course was played over the tournament it would be the same. Basically, a 54 would be the same in round 1 as it was in round 4. This really did help the "ams get screwed when playing the course with no pros" problem, but then it created huge issues when conditions changed.

This was the worst one I've seen since the change. http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/13263

Day 1 the open division played shorts then longs. Then day 2, they played the same order, so round 1 and round 3 are the same ratings and round 2 and round 4 are the same as well. The only issue is on day 1, the conditions were perfect. On day 2, there were 50 MPH winds.

so what happenend was day 1 ratings went way up from the original ratings and day 2 went way down from the original ratings because they were all lumped together.

I can show about 10 - 15 examples of ratings being complete jokes.

 

[_MTL_]

For the top players in ball golf and disc golf, you refer to their World Rankings not their handicaps or ratings. For competitive rec players in a sport, even those playing them don't always understand their ratings systems. Do you know what a 3.5 tennis player means and the highest rating possible? Did you know that a 4.0 woman tennis player is not the same skill level as a 4.0 man?

The sport of Orienteering is very similar to disc golf in that individuals traverse different courses with all types of terrain and challenges in competition. Check out their points formula for rankings. If I said I was a 950 runner, would you know what that meant? http://iof.6prog.org/IOF_Documents/FootO/spec2012.htm

No, I have no idea what that means. But I was referring solely to handicapping, not rankings.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Averaging together two rounds does not hurt or help players' ratings even if the weather is drastically different between rounds. While the individual ratings will be different if rated separately, the player's average rating for the two rounds remains the same whether rated separately or averaged. So the player neither gains nor loses ratings points.

 

[_MTL_]

Averaging together two rounds does not hurt or help players' ratings even if the weather is drastically different between rounds. While the individual ratings will be different if rated separately, the player's average rating for the two rounds remains the same whether rated separately or averaged. So the player neither gains nor loses ratings points.

I understand that. But what if someone DNFed and didn't play day 2 in my scenario above? They would then be rewarded from their scores from day 1 due to the conditions from day 1.

There were 4 people who didn't play day 2 and one more that didnt play round 4.

 

[HotPinkBeast]

After someone does it 3 times add a Q to their PDGA number.

I would say the first time!

Maybe just put the dreaded * next to their rating, for ALL to see.

BTW, these people ( that worry about their rating ) are taking this sport way too seriously, and are not out there for the right reason, IMHO.

Just have fun out there!

 

[Cgkdisc]

Those anomalies even out over time. Recognize that even a 30-point difference between rounds after getting averaged means the error for those single round players is only 15 points which is about a 3% error. People overestimate the impact of points because we magnified ratings by a factor of 10 to eliminate decimal points when the system was created.

 

[garublador]

It's not that people outside of the sport don't care about ratings - it's they don't understand them.

People understand golf. Golf uses handicapping. But the reason why handicapping works is par is standardized. People care about other people's handicaps. When I tell people I play golf they ask me "what is your handicap?" When I tell people I play disc golf, they don't say "oh what's your rating?" when basically, it's the same question.

Our rating system is really well thought out and most of the little things that people don't get - such as why a stroke isn't always worth 10 points - makes complete sense when you really think about them. Granted there are obvious flaws and obvious things that make us all laugh, but nothing is perfect.

But the fact is people outside of disc golf don't have any knowledge of it at all and until we find a way to get it in conjuction with handicapping, is pretty much useless information to 99% of the population.

That's just an explanation of why outsiders don't care about ratings, not an argument for changing the DNF rules. The point was that regardless of why, outsiders don't care about ratings, therefore punishing people for artificially inflating them doesn't make any sense. Who cares if someone inflates their ratings for bragging rights? They still lose when they DNF. Having the highest rating in the world won't help if you quit half way through a tournament.

 

[HotPinkBeast]

One more thing, I thought a rating was to see how you compare to other players.

How do you do that, when you're a cheat?

 

[dashiellx]

One more thing, I thought a rating was to see how you compare to other players.

How do you do that, when you're a cheat?

Exactly.

 

[pspunch]

Pound their testicles flat with a wooden mallet.

I stopped reading after this post, because this is clearly the answer. Not sure why there are 4 more pages of posts, problem solved!

 

[patdb23]

Averaging together two rounds does not hurt or help players' ratings even if the weather is drastically different between rounds. While the individual ratings will be different if rated separately, the player's average rating for the two rounds remains the same whether rated separately or averaged. So the player neither gains nor loses ratings points.

Eh, not a fan of this ^^^. Each round should be rated separate. Almost lost my first 1,000 rated round because of this BS. I throw the best round in 20mph wind conditions vs. earlier no wind conditions and you wanna average that crap, shaking head.

The main issue I have with DNF players is the intentional act of NOT playing the full event while other players could of played in that spot. If the event is not full, then by all means, I could careless if someone DNF's for whatever reason. Sometimes people just have a terrible round. Rather than sulking or bringing other players down, they leave and let others enjoy the day. But if it's a full event, and there is others that could of played sitting on the sidelines, then have some class and stick it out.

 

[DiscChainBasket18]

Players not getting into tourneys because they filled up early (with quitters) need to register sooner. Quitters are very unpredictable & cannot be counted on to do the right thing (other than make sure they are registered early) Just sayin'

 

[patdb23]

Players not getting into tourneys because they filled up early (with quitters) need to register sooner. Quitters are very unpredictable & cannot be counted on to do the right thing (other than make sure they are registered early) Just sayin'

That's avoiding the issue. Yes, I usually side with the idea if you want to play register early. One of my buddies didn't have the money during early registration and wanted to sign up later but the event was full and he wasn't able to get in. Then comes the start of the event, a player gets a 7 on their 2nd hole of the first round and walks off the course. Meanwhile my buddy is sitting on the sideline, while this DB just quits. It's not a perfect system, and there's no straightforward solution to it.