What will it take to dethrone Ken Climo?

[DiscNutt123]

This doesn't tell you something? The guy was so good at his time that there were only 1 or 2 guys that even had a chance........

It tells me there weren't very many great players... If you can't see that the competition today is far greater than that of yesteryear's, then that is plain ignorance. I'm finished arguing though. If somehow we find a way to put Climo back in his prime, with all the new technology, I'll still gladly put any amount of money on McBeth. The kid is just that good, and its pretty easy to see.

 

[The Hammer]

It tells me there weren't very many great players... If you can't see that the competition today is far greater than that of yesteryear's, then that is plain ignorance. I'm finished arguing though. If somehow we find a way to put Climo back in his prime, with all the new technology, I'll still gladly put any amount of money on McBeth. The kid is just that good, and its pretty easy to see.

No one said McBeth isn't good (except Time2Shine, but he huffs paint). You're saying he is better than the best ever. There is a big difference.

 

[Halcón]

He's got you on the hook Hammer, wriggle free while you still can.

 

[tbird888]

No one said McBeth isn't good (except Time2Shine, but he huffs paint). You're saying he is better than the best ever. There is a big difference.

This is the same situation as the people thinking Ken Block is the best rally driver ever (he's barely decent) because of his Gymkhana videos but who go blank when you mention Group B, Rohrl, Sainz, and Makinen (and McRae to a lesser extent since he got some much deserved attention thanks to the Dirt game series).

Want a more mainstream sport? Jim Brown, Gayle Sayers, and Herschel Walker in football. Bob Gibson, Cy Young (you mean he was an actual player? :|), and Stan Musial in baseball.

 

[DiscNutt123]

No one said McBeth isn't good (except Time2Shine, but he huffs paint). You're saying he is better than the best ever. There is a big difference.

You're right, that's what I'm saying. Paul McBeth right now, is better than Climo was at his best.

 

[DiscNutt123]

He's got you on the hook Hammer, wriggle free while you still can.

What hook? I'm not a troller by any means. I'm being dead serious when I say what I say.

 

[5QU166Y]

You're right, that's what I'm saying. Paul McBeth right now, is better than Climo was at his best.

Eh. It's obvious neither of you will change your stance. I think you should each just be happy with your choices and stop arguing.

It would be interesting to see what Climo could have done with this new technology. I think the separation in the field would be even greater than it was.

 

[gcr_russell]

I'm not suggesting that McBeth is better than Climo all time yet, but I was curious what criteria people would consider needed to get there for him or anyone else. I think that he wouldn't necessarily need to match the same accomplishments as Climo because less world championships would comparatively be an equal or greater accomplishment in this day and age.

Who knows what new players are gonna be coming up in the next 5-10 years. A lot more people are growing up with the game.

 

[DiscNutt123]

I'm not suggesting that McBeth is better than Climo all time yet, but I was curious what criteria people would consider needed to get there for him or anyone else. I think that he wouldn't necessarily need to match the same accomplishments as Climo because less world championships would comparatively be an equal or greater accomplishment in this day and age.

Who knows what new players are gonna be coming up in the next 5-10 years. A lot more people are growing up with the game.

This exactly. Back to back Worlds titles has to be much harder to accomplish in todays game knowing the competition. Yes, Climo was much better than most of his competition, but I still don't think he was ever as good or better than McBeth is right now...even if he would've had the new technology. Just based on pure skill level and abilities. Higher speed disc doesn't automatically give the ability to park 550' holes consistently.

 

[The Hammer]

You're right, that's what I'm saying. Paul McBeth right now, is better than Climo was at his best.

Have you seen Climo at his best, or are you just guessing?

 

[disc qualified]

Comparisons are odious.



Kids today have no concept of history and think everything new just has to be better than anything old.

 

[The Hammer]

Comparisons are odious.



Kids today have no concept of history and think everything new just has to be better than anything old.

Agreed.

 

[justactnormal]

Seems like some would like to take the "time" part out of the equation, when talking about the greatest of all time.

Right now, McBeast is the greatest. I wouldn't argue against that. There's every expectation that he should win or be in the running of any tournament he enters. Right now.

Time is the difference maker. The Champ played at that level for over a decade, winning nearly every tourney he entered. You could argue that the game's changed and technology has advanced and it has, but all the competitors were playing with the same discs then and everybody was getting better all the time and Climo still dominated. Even as things changed, he stayed at the top, and even now he's likely a favorite in any Master's division tourney he plays 25 years or so after his first title. What was it, 9 straight world titles, 13 in 20 years, give or take. That's GOAT level play, no argument to be made.

To dethrone Climo, McBeth would have to keep playing at the level he is now for about another 10 years. Actually, I guess he'll have to get even better, as Climo did, and keep advancing his game to stay at the top for a decade straight. Then you can start having the conversation, but until then you'd be ignoring the biggest part of the GOAT..... time.

 

[Truschioni]

these debates always end at the same point, two people on each side saying they're right, but no definitive way to prove it. When it comes to sports, especially individual sports like golf, stats say everything. I think McBeth is awesome at his peak right now he may be equivalent to Climo at his peak, but we cannot prove that.

Like many have pointed out, it has only been two years, and his domination at the Vibram this weekend was incredible. I hope he stays with it and plays for years to come, and proves himself to be 'the greatest' but statistically speaking, which is really the best indicator says Climo is the best so far.

 

[ru4por]

Have you seen Climo at his best, or are you just guessing?

I have, and to speak in absolutes in the comparision is simply conjecture and innuendo....either way. The eras are too difficult to compare. I have a hard time believing anyone will have the longevity, health and ability to donate 12 years of their life, at a young age, to the game, as Climo was able to do. PM 1,000 times over Climo is kinda crazy talk.....sorry.

 

[Truschioni]

To dethrone Climo, McBeth would have to keep playing at the level he is now for about another 10 years. Actually, I guess he'll have to get even better, as Climo did, and keep advancing his game to stay at the top for a decade straight. Then you can start having the conversation, but until then you'd be ignoring the biggest part of the GOAT..... time.

Exactly

 

[wake911]

There will always be varying opinions of who is the G.O.A.T. because of all the changes you listed.

Richard Petty won 200 NASCAR races but we'll never see anyone hit triple-digit wins beacuse the sport has undergone too many changes.

I agree. Different generations are VERY tough to compare (It's a big issue in racing, baseball, basketball, football, golf, etc)

Obviously 13 open titles would make it a no-brainer, but i'd argue that Nate (3x) and Paul (2x) have both secured their multiples in a tougher competitive environment than the Champ did his. More kids have grown up playing, not picking it up later in life. As time goes on, that will continue to be the case, making it much tougher for anyone to dominate like the Champ did.

I did like Will's facebook post "It's hard to be disappointed with 2nd place when the person who beat you shot one of the best rounds ever, congrats to Paul...."

 

[The Hammer]

Seems like some would like to take the "time" part out of the equation, when talking about the greatest of all time.

Right now, McBeast is the greatest. I wouldn't argue against that. There's every expectation that he should win or be in the running of any tournament he enters. Right now.

Time is the difference maker. The Champ played at that level for over a decade, winning nearly every tourney he entered. You could argue that the game's changed and technology has advanced and it has, but all the competitors were playing with the same discs then and everybody was getting better all the time and Climo still dominated. Even as things changed, he stayed at the top, and even now he's likely a favorite in any Master's division tourney he plays 25 years or so after his first title. What was it, 9 straight world titles, 13 in 20 years, give or take. That's GOAT level play, no argument to be made.

To dethrone Climo, McBeth would have to keep playing at the level he is now for about another 10 years. Actually, I guess he'll have to get even better, as Climo did, and keep advancing his game to stay at the top for a decade straight. Then you can start having the conversation, but until then you'd be ignoring the biggest part of the GOAT..... time.

Great point!

GOAT - Climo
GORN (Greatest of Right Now) - McBeth

 

[DavidSauls]

You guys are going to need a time machine to settle this.

Climo will probably hold title as the most dominant player.

Whether today's top talent is actually better, which it very well could be, it's certainly deeper, which will make such dominance in the future very unlikely. But I'm an old guy and have seen unreachable marks in other sports end up being reached and broken, so who knows?

 

[burdphil]

That being said, the competition then doesn't even compare to now. There were maybe 2 or 3 other guys that could beat Climo. Right now, at every NT or Major, there are AT LEAST 15 players that have a legitimate shot of winning.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Haven't all of the majors and NT events this year been won by either McBeth, Wysocki, or Schusterick?

Edit: I'm right. Here's the breakdown...

Memorial: Schusterick
Texas States: Wysocki
Copenhagen: McBeth
Masters Cup: McBeth
Hall of Fame: Wysocki
DGLO: Wysocki
KCWO: McBeth
Beaver State: Schusterick
European Open: McBeth
Worlds: McBeth
Vibram: McBeth

That's not 15 legitimate contenders, that's three...