What's more important: Spin or speed?

[DiscFifty]

I'm still struggling with getting more distance, but recently I've witnessed 2 obvious techniques in person to get consistent 400+ drives:

1) Arm speed. I've seen guys that launch the disc crazy fast.

2) Slower arm speed, but amazing spin. This disc looks like it's flying slow but just seems to keep on going...and going.

Thoughts? Thx.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

there is a balance IMO to get the longest flight out of a mold. You can spin a disc really fast and have it not travel forward at all but trying to propel a disc very hard without any spin on it will lead to no distance either.

If max D is the purpose you have to throw with max power but maintain good technique which benefits from adding in that power and speed. No player is throwing 400+ with slow arm speed and tons of spin.

 

[The Happy Gilmore]

Spin>speed.
/thread

 

[Kodachrome]

the faster you throw, the harder it is to hold on through the hit IMO.

throw faster, hold on longer, you'll spin it more. from there, adjust your angles and choose your stability.

it's not really one or the other, but finding your balance point of both. if you want theoretical numbers, launch speed is really what it boils down to though.

 

[sidewinder22]

As Climo said, Speed. Spin is just a byproduct of good throwing mechanics. To throw a hammer far do you try to spin it? No, you leverage it and it spins. The faster the disc(wider rim) the more the disc acts like a simple projectile and less like a flying gyro wing, so speed becomes even more important.

 

[tomsdiscs]

Spin is often what makes the difference, people who struggle with distance are not imparting enough rotation over the range they want the disc to fly.

A non-rotating disc is not going to fly very far no matter how much speed is imparted into it, a non-rotating object can't really form a consistent trajectory through the air, rotation is what let's something create a consistent trajectory through the air/atmosphere, and the reason golf balls without dimples were replaced with golf balls with dimples, why baseballs have seams, so do footballs, and of course anybody who really knows how to hit a good slapshot in ice hockey knows they must rotate the puck so it CUTS through the air.

And if you are familiar with firearms, the barrels have rifling in them so the bullet will ROTATE.

A hallmark sign of a beginner in disc golf is the flailing disc that hyzers out really quickly, largely from a lack of rotation. The smooth pull that parks under the basket is one that has the requisite amount of rotation dialed in for the shot. Rotation is what lets a disc golf disc get floaty and glide, power pushes it down the line, but power can not push a non rotating object very far in any particular direction. If you can not rotate the disc well, you will struggle in the wind, especially headwinds.

A hallmark sign of an experienced disc golfer is the slow, smooth pull that goes farther than most of the other players out on the course. Yes, there is some acceleration before release, but the rotation is often what makes the difference between 2 players.

In the end, speed and spin matter, but most shots on the course do not require max speed, but imparting the right amount of rotation will always be important, even on putts, and once you get tuned in, you will become less of a fan of push putts and learn to get a little rotation on all putts (unless you really like the sound of those short putts hitting the cage).

A lot of players cheat themselves out of rotation by letting their wrist get too active at release, a new video posted recently of Drew Gibson and he stresses controlling the wrist at release, and I agree with him, you build the energy, it travels down your arm, do not let it leak at the last second wobbling your wrist, let it flow down through your wrist, into your hand, and into the disc.

A good drill for tuning into rotation is to alternate throwing using a power grip with all 4 fingers on the inner rim and then trying with just 3 fingers (do not use the pinky). Interestingly, in Schusterick's latest distance video, he discloses he only uses 3 fingers, BUT the index finger is the one he pulls off the inner rim, not the pinky. It surely works for him, I threw with him a couple years ago and he really has freakish distance, but I recommend trying the drill by alternating 4 fingers and then 3 fingers with no pinky.

 

[sidewinder22]

OP's question/answer is really flawed asking about "arm speed" vs spin. It's not really a vs thing. More often than not players that struggle with distance are curling their arm around the disc and trying to spin the snot out of it and not leveraging it or launching it with enough velocity. If you are trying to spin the disc and you slow down your arm, you will slow down the spin.

What is "arm speed"? When is it speeding? Typically "arm speed" is how fast at the end of the throw, it should be accelerating through impact, otherwise it's likely slowing down if you start too fast. If you slow your arm down through impact, you lose all the leverage or smash that gets coupled through accelerating your levers in correct sequence.

Mechanically speaking a throw is more like a bow and arrow than a rifled bullet. You don't try to pull faster or spin it more, you pull/swing back further and/or tighten the string to load and release more momentum on the arrow/disc. We throw a disc with leverage catapulting/slinging the head end forward like a hammer's head. Throw the head forward with more momentum and it goes further and spins faster. The vast majority of force on a bullet is forward with a little converted to spin(this is also different than a disc because the spin is in a different axis than it's velocity). If you want the bullet to go further you add more gunpowder and it will go faster and spin faster, you don't waste more energy adding more spiral in the barrel.

I can make 10' putts with no spin, but I can't make a 1' putt without forward velocity and only spin. I thought we were talking about distance?

 

[DiscFifty]

Yah...but after playing so many tournaments now and seeing bad form bomb 400, good form only get 250, and then there's the guy with absolutely NO reach back at all...throws from below the waist and just backhand old school flicks (all wrist) it 350 like it's the easiest thing to do in the world. Sorry...there's appears many ways to skin this cat. Hence my original question, because I'm seeing both scenarios work for decent distance. But I do see that there is no real answer to this question because you can't have distance without both speed and spin.

Btw....if you throw a hammer like Thor, heavy side first...and it stays that way...I'm guessing it would go further than spinning because each spin would theoretically cause just a bit of loss momentum going backwards where as the heavy side staying forward would not be affected by that. ? ? ?

 

[Dan Ensor]

Speed will take the disc a long way, but it requires a certain amount of spin to stabilize it.

Take the bullet example: There are bullet shapes that are a little more aerodynamic and could go faster than the current design. However, the weight of the bullet doesn't allow enough angular momentum from spin for it to stabilize. There's a certain amount of angular momentum a certain caliber of lead bullet can produce. So they make the most aerodynamic bullet that can stabilize with that amount of angular momentum.


Now, we can increase spin, but we would only need to if the disc wasn't stabilizing. The disc generally doesn't stabilize for us because our torque PREVENTS it from spinning enough; we create enough spin, then destroy it. So the number of people that actually need more spin is incredibly small (possibly non-existent, but I'll give some room for a forehander or two).


Those old cats aren't making the disc spin faster. They're throwing the longest part of the disc.

 

[slowplastic]

I know what you mean when it seems like guys don't really throw "fast" and it still goes 350...but they are accelerating at the right time. And if they threw harder it would go a lot further.

That's the difference between someone just reaching 350' on the edge of their form...they're doing it by throwing as fast as possible. Someone who throws 425' can reach 350' looking like they aren't throwing that hard. Like a beginner who strong arms a Leopard/Teebird to scratch 300' with a fast run up, vs. a smooth form player throwing a 60% midrange floater 300'. To me it's the same comparison, just with drivers and the next level of form in each case.

I've seen a guy who has amazing snap and a very mellow reach back/throw and he throws 400'+. But another guy I've played with on the same card throws visibly a lot harder (but with very good form too), but can throw 50'+ further than him.

 

[ToddL]

Spin is overrated. Spin it enough to make it act like a nice gyroscope, but that's all you need. Crudely speaking, once it's a gyroscope, it's a gyroscope -- more spin isn't going to make much of a difference.
Of course, when you have a nice late-acceleration release, you're going to be spinning it plenty.

 

[Mocheez]

I'm still struggling with getting more distance, but recently I've witnessed 2 obvious techniques in person to get consistent 400+ drives:

1) Arm speed. I've seen guys that launch the disc crazy fast.

2) Slower arm speed, but amazing spin. This disc looks like it's flying slow but just seems to keep on going...and going.

Thoughts? Thx.

I would say that the angle of release is probably more of a factor when you are seeing more distance out of a slower arm. An under-stable disc thrown slightly nose down on a hyzer-flip/turnover will travel much further than an over-stable disc thrown flat at the same speed.

 

[garublador]

Yah...but after playing so many tournaments now and seeing bad form bomb 400, good form only get 250, and then there's the guy with absolutely NO reach back at all...throws from below the waist and just backhand old school flicks (all wrist) it 350 like it's the easiest thing to do in the world.

It sounds like you may need to change what you focus on when evaluating form.

Sorry...there's appears many ways to skin this cat. Hence my original question, because I'm seeing both scenarios work for decent distance. But I do see that there is no real answer to this question because you can't have distance without both speed and spin.

There's also not a good answer because you can't control either one independently. There's a thread here (and on other forums) where Erin Hemmings (world record distance thrower) did a bunch of experiments with spin and found that faster throws many times had less spin. Also, he couldn't control spin at any useful level:

It is also possible to increase or decrease spin purposefully, although I found this to be impractical and awkward. A disc with extra spin does seem to resist low speed fade better than a disc with less spin. Strangely, when I tried to spin the hell out of a disc it would sometimes show less rpm's than a normal throw?!

People claiming to spin the disc more or less don't really know if they're actually accomplishing that or not unless they're doing some sort of accurate measurement. I'm guessing that doesn't get done very often.

So asking about which gives more distance might be an interesting thought exercise, it probably won't help you throw farther. Trying to improve your timing and getting the feel for the hit will give you the biggest improvement, but is probably the most difficult thing to learn. Just getting good mechanics will get you to that 350' with fairway drivers plateau. Doing that stuff right will get you the spin and speed that you're after.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Angle of release is so absurdly important.

If you can see the flight plate, it's not nose down enough. Hyzer, flat or anhyzer.

The disc should look like a line in the sky.

Add into that finding the range of balance with a stable driver (like a champ tern) and release it on just enough anhyzer that it still flexes back and that nose down drive will stay up for a very long time.

This works with all discs too.... which I regularly forget. But those nose angles can shape shots so nicely with putters and mids. If you want a short approach shot to never break back left (RHBH), put the nose down and take advantage of it - they'll hold right to the ground. Nose up, you'll stabilze that disc and get a nice predictable fade.

 

[sidewinder22]

But I do see that there is no real answer to this question because you can't have distance without both speed and spin.

As I said before, I can make a 10' putt that has no spin, but I can't even make a 1' putt that has no forward speed. You can have distance without spin, but you can't have distance without velocity.

Btw....if you throw a hammer like Thor, heavy side first...and it stays that way...I'm guessing it would go further than spinning because each spin would theoretically cause just a bit of loss momentum going backwards where as the heavy side staying forward would not be affected by that. ? ? ?

I don't believe you can really throw a hammer without it continuing to spin, maybe Thor can in fantasy land. The longer the lever and the heavier the end of the lever, the slower it spins.

This might help:
http://www.knifethrowing.info/physics_of_knife_throwing.html

 

[DiscFifty]

Thank you for all the comments. As usual...good stuff. Yah..overall..lesson learned. But wish I could record that guy back hand flicking that disc 350. Yep..he hyzer flips it to straight and it just goes. The guy is killer accurate in low ceiling tunnel shots. lol...

 

[joecoin]

...

I don't believe you can really throw a hammer without it continuing to spin, maybe Thor can in fantasy land. The longer the lever and the heavier the end of the lever, the slower it spins...

If you hold the head of the hammer and throw it, the hammer will not spin.

 

[Dave242]

Which wing of an airplane is more important?

I would say its the one you don't have.

 

[ToddL]

Which wing of an airplane is more important

Depends if the airplane is an A-10 or not.

 

[slowplastic]

If you hold the head of the hammer and throw it, the hammer will not spin.

That's not really the end of the lever then...the point of the hammer analogy is to throw the opposite edge of the disc.