[Question] What's the deal with "special" runs?

[Rastnav]

Sometimes manufacturers will slightly tweak a mold and re-use a name. The Captain's Raptor and the Sockibomb Slammer are two recent examples of this.

We also have rleases like Tour Series (the Discraft touring pros signature discs ) that all get a special plastic blend specific to that year.

But we also see a specific run/runs of a mold get a special name (Sky God, Eagle Claw, Night Strike ... maybe it's just a Discmania thing). I'm not sure whether that applies to Sexton Firebirds or not, but I believe it's similar. In any case, you will see people extolling the virtues of these specific discs.

Now, specific runs will have different flight characteristics, but the way the pros talk about these discs, it sounds like these characteristics are being targetted rather than simple accidents.

So what's going on there? Are the disc manufacturers working with the pros to get something out of a run that they normally wouldn't? If so, what sort of parameters are being tweaked?

And I know I'm going to get a lot of cynical "it's just marketing" takes, but I don't think that is all that is going on here. At the very least a small run of discs is going to allow more consistency.

 

[R-Ogre]

You cant tweak an injection mold that easily. The "tweaks" are made by changing the plastic blend and the cooling time to change things like weight and flatness which in turn effect glide and stability. There is at least one case of a manufacturer using the foil stamping process to change flatness, no idea if it's ever been done intentionally since. The whole thing is pretty imprecise, see the run of Barsby eagles a couple years back that were pretty much opposite of what he wanted.

 

[BillFleming]

I think they are mainly tweaks made for the pros. Here's an example and if I can find the video where Drew talks about it, I'll post it.

Drew Gibson joined Infinite and also had a side-contract/sponsorship with Legacy (one or two years ago). He liked the Legacy Rival, but the Rival didn't really fit his need. He worked with Legacy to tweak the Rival and the Phantom Warrior was born. Plastic was the obvious change, but I also think the Warrior is a bit flatter than the Rival also.

So companies tweak an existing mold to meet their player's needs, but they can't quite call it the same thing so it gets a 'special' name. Some names are totally different and some are similar. Innova used to make a Pig that was flatter than the normal Pig...it was named the Wysocki Tour Series Pig - so the same name was used...but changed a bit.

 

[R-Ogre]

Again…I don't think they actually "tweak" a mold. My understanding is that the actual molds for discs are big, heavy, very precisely machined, very expensive pieces of steel and even if the manufacturer wanted to risk screwing it up by making an adjustment, I'm not even sure that it's feasible to drop a mold part into a mill and actually cut a change in it. So if they're making "changes to a mold" I would imagine they're replacing one of the pieces (I think there are 3 for a disc) with a new different one.

 

[Jolt]

They make tweaks to sell more disc…

 

[uncle pennybags]

Some molds have multiple pieces, so sometimes tweaks means using different pieces to Frankenstein a different mold together.

 

[Alexplz]

Again…I don't think they actually "tweak" a mold. My understanding is that the actual molds for discs are big, heavy, very precisely machined, very expensive pieces of steel and even if the manufacturer wanted to risk screwing it up by making an adjustment, I'm not even sure that it's feasible to drop a mold part into a mill and actually cut a change in it. So if they're making "changes to a mold" I would imagine they're replacing one of the pieces (I think there are 3 for a disc) with a new different one.

There has been a rumor of spacers being used to stabilize certain molds - I think the Roadrunner and Sidewinder molds were monkeyed with in this way to produce stuff like the TD and OLF. Or alternatively and more commonly, frankenmolds were used like just adding the anhyzer top mold piece on a bevvy of Innova drivers.

Anyway yeah back on the actual question, I think very few if any special runs involve actual tweaks to the molds themselves, otherwise I think you'd be seeing fresh PDGA approvals dropping. Flat top processing, careful cooling, plastic runs yes.

 

[@CD-]

I think they just alter the mold machine's parameters slightly to try for different characteristics and less F2s. Since they are limited runs the consistency for disc characteristics is higher throughout and they get unique stamps to identify each year's run.

Innova/Discraft/Lat64 have a variety of non-stock plastic blends offered for fundraising purposes. Some of their contract molding companies like DGA/DD/Infinite/Millennium might offer these as 'stock LE' runs. I assume the pros want a unique disc in a desirable plastic but most will just take what they get and hope it sells. Barsby a few years back (first Eagle swirly star run) and Ezra this year (Nuke SS baby?) both seem to be less enthusiastic with how those TS runs actually performed. We saw a few shifts in weight ranges from Innova team members this year with Holly & Philo going to max weights - maybe marketing & higher demand.

• Sockibomb Slammer is a different mold than the OOP Slammer. It may have reused the top piece but the bottom changed to meet what Ricky wanted.
• Cap Raptor/Sexton FB are potentially different mold piece(s) but mostly the plastic blend changes the flight/grip enough to make a noticeable difference.

 

[BillFleming]

I think the comments about molds being tweaked (at least mine) refers to the type of disc. The term mold has been used many times to identify a specific disc type. Like "what Innova molds do you throw". Or "they made that mold in a super soft plastic".

So mold is used both ways...the metal forms used to make discs and the discs themselves.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Mfrs have a lot of stored knowledge that they don't want to share, but they know what things (plastic temp, ambient temp or ambient humidity, etc), affect the flight characteristics and how to minimize them (Lat64, Discraft, etc) and sometimes they can't be bothered (Innova, etc).
For special runs, sometimes they will work with/for a high-value Pro to alter the flight of a disc, or even use a special plastic, usually to "stabilize" it, and sell it as a special run, at a higher retail, and a higher per-disc value goes to that Pro.
Think Nate Sexton FB, Captain's Raptor for Uli, CloudBreaker for Eagle.

To be fair, sometimes these discs are really useful, and sometimes they're "meh", but it usually helps the Pros stay on tour and live life

 

[seedlings]

Companies realized that they can't make the same disc twice, so every run is special.

 

[Rastnav]

Again…I don't think they actually "tweak" a mold. My understanding is that the actual molds for discs are big, heavy, very precisely machined, very expensive pieces of steel and even if the manufacturer wanted to risk screwing it up by making an adjustment, I'm not even sure that it's feasible to drop a mold part into a mill and actually cut a change in it. So if they're making "changes to a mold" I would imagine they're replacing one of the pieces (I think there are 3 for a disc) with a new different one.

When a say "tweak the mold", I mean tweaking the disc design and creating a new mold, and thus a new disc to be approved. If you look at the PDGA list of approved discs, both the Captain's Raptor and the Sockibomb Slammer are listed as different discs. The PDGA requires that molds (i.e. the design for the injection mold, not each physical mold) be approved and given unique names.

But you won't find "Sky God" on that list. There are three different approved discs that are approved with "Firebird" in the name, but none of them were created specifically for Sexton.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Article on the Sexton Firebird from Ultiworld where Nate described what he wanted.
https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2020/08/11/the-rise-of-the-sexton-firebird/

That promotion meant that Sexton got to choose a signature Tour Series disc. Since 2005, he'd been bagging KC 11x glow Firebirds, but the new run of 12x Firebirds were very overstable, too much so even for a powerful forehand thrower like Sexton.

"I'm looking for an every day fairway driver with reliable fade but that's not going to break your arm off," he told Innova, and asked for his signature disc to be a Firebird in their new color glow plastic with "a little bit of dome, a little bit of flex," more in the style of the 11x.

Seems the tweaking is more plastic type and cooling related as tweaking the actual steel molds would be very expensive.

 

[Rastnav]

Article on the Sexton Firebird from Ultiworld where Nate described what he wanted.
https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2020/08/11/the-rise-of-the-sexton-firebird/

That promotion meant that Sexton got to choose a signature Tour Series disc. Since 2005, he'd been bagging KC 11x glow Firebirds, but the new run of 12x Firebirds were very overstable, too much so even for a powerful forehand thrower like Sexton.

"I'm looking for an every day fairway driver with reliable fade but that's not going to break your arm off," he told Innova, and asked for his signature disc to be a Firebird in their new color glow plastic with "a little bit of dome, a little bit of flex," more in the style of the 11x.

Seems the tweaking is more plastic type and cooling related as tweaking the actual steel molds would be very expensive.

Again, tweaking the mold can happen (see above) but that becomes a completely different disc that has to be approved by the PDGA.

That article does provide a clue (and its also the kind of thing that has made me ask the question).

So, Sexton asked for a specific plastic, but it's a little unclear to me whether the dome and flex he wants are things he expects to come from the plastic he chose, or whether they are things he wants Innova to provide via something else, like changing specifics of pretreatment of the mold or plastic, or the conditions prevailing when the disc is removed from the mold, or some further additive to the plastic used.

Those are things I'm wondering about. Sexton clearly expects that the characteristics he wants can be delivered. This is one of the things that makes disc golf both great and a little frustrating. So much "black magic" involved when aquiring plastic.

 

[R-Ogre]

both the Captain's Raptor and the Sockibomb Slammer are listed as different discs.

Interesting, did not know that for those two molds!

 

[seedlings]

Article on the Sexton Firebird from Ultiworld where Nate described what he wanted.
https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2020/08/11/the-rise-of-the-sexton-firebird/

That promotion meant that Sexton got to choose a signature Tour Series disc. Since 2005, he'd been bagging KC 11x glow Firebirds, but the new run of 12x Firebirds were very overstable, too much so even for a powerful forehand thrower like Sexton.

"I'm looking for an every day fairway driver with reliable fade but that's not going to break your arm off," he told Innova, and asked for his signature disc to be a Firebird in their new color glow plastic with "a little bit of dome, a little bit of flex," more in the style of the 11x.

Seems the tweaking is more plastic type and cooling related as tweaking the actual steel molds would be very expensive.

It kinda sounds like Nate wanted a Thunderbird. Haha.