What's the ruling.....

[XGumbyx]

I just finished a round with a friend and we had an odd situation happen on a hole that neither of us knew what the proper ruling was. A drive off the tee came to rest on a rock overhang about 15ft above the basket. The overhang is accessible so one could play from behind the lie however it is a bit dangerous to do so. This in itself isn't an issue, the complicated part is that the disk was on the very edge of the overhang with it's front edge over the edge by an inch or two. If it were a tree he could have just placed his marker directly underneath on the ground beside the basket and drop his putt in without taking any penalties but since it is a rock overhand and he technically could have played it from behind where the disc came to rest but if he were to mark the disc with his marker it would be marked 15ft directly underneath his disc on the playing surface of the basket.

In the end it was decided to just tap in without taking any strokes as it was not work the risk to play the disc where it was. It would however have been safe to take relief behind the disc in line with the basket.

What's the ruling?

 

[Improbably]

There are actually two possible lies. One behind the disc as it came to rest, and one behind a marker placed on the surface immediately in front of the disc. Player has option to take either.

 

[XGumbyx]

So you are confirming that 15ft below a disc is a valid marker placement for this situation then? And if it is, is there a specific rule that confirms this?

 

[hiflyer]

Can't answer for Improbably, but as for the second question: Yes.

 

[XGumbyx]

Can't answer for Improbably, but as for the second question: Yes.

I understand there is a rule that states how you may play your lie with from behind the disc itself or mark the disc and then play behind the marker, but specifically which rule states that a marker can be placed 15ft below a disc (or above for that matter) when a legal stance is available at or behind the disc itself?

 

[Smigles]

I see nothing in the rules that just lets you pick which playing surface you play from if you can get behind your disc and play from where it lies. You have to play from up top IMO.

 

[zenbot]

If it were a tree he could have just placed his marker directly underneath on the ground beside the basket and drop his putt in without taking any penalties

Not here. 2 meter rule is always in play and this is a good example of why.

Who wants to fight me?

 

[biscoe]

Not here. 2 meter rule is always in play and this is a good example of why.

Who wants to fight me?

No one Don Quixote... more windmills over thataway... (2 meter rule penalizes bad luck)

 

[ToddL]

If your disc's position is on a playing surface, you're supposed to play from that playing surface.

In the interest of safety and consistency, the TD should preemptively make a declaration on that scenario. Flag it off, make a drop zone, or something.

 

[curt]

If there's no reasonable way to get to the lie (for example, if it would be dangerous to get there), then it would be allowed to mark it next to the basket.

Here's the applicable Rules Q&A:


QA-POS-1: How do I mark a disc in an inaccessible location below the playing surface like a crevice? Is there a penalty?

The rules that apply to a disc above the playing surface also apply to a disc below the playing surface. If you can locate your disc in the crevice and no reasonable stance can be taken there, you can mark your lie directly above it on the playing surface without penalty. If the point directly above the disc is in the air or within a solid object, mark your lie at the first available spot back along the line of play.

If you could reasonably get on top of the overhang, things get a little less clear, to me.

This seems to establish a precedent for marking below the position of the disc. Extending this Q&A to you situation seems reasonable, to me:

QA-MAR-3: My disc is stuck in a tree, directly above the trunk. How do I mark it?
If there is room to mark your disc directly below it, that is what you do. If not, you mark at the first available spot back along the line of play.


This is also relevant:

QA-LIE-1: My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since it's above the creek? What if I'm on the bridge but over land?
A bridge is an example where one playing surface is vertically stacked above another playing surface. Each playing surface is treated independently. The bridge is in-bounds unless the TD has declared it to be OB, regardless of whether a playing surface above or below it is OB. If the two-meter rule is in use, it does not apply because your disc is on, not above, the playing surface. You mark your lie on the bridge, and there is no penalty.

 

[ejvogie]

If it were my course design, I'd have marked the overhang as a tree and allowed a drop directly beneath for anyone landing on top. Or a drop zone.

Any chance the rule of verticality comes into play here?

 

[Cgkdisc]

If this were Calvin's lie, we could invoke the Heimburg Uncertainty Principle wherein his lie could simultaneously be on either playing surface. Which would he choose? Note that as much as disc golf emulates ball golf, "playing it where it lies" is not one of them. On its basic level players have at least two choices on most lies to set their mark either in front of their disc or leave it in place and play from behind it.

This overhang situation is not much different than say a disc landing on an uneven playing surface where part of the disc on the basket side is suspended an inch or two above the ground under it. The player can mark with a mini in front of the disc or leave the disc there and play from behind it. With the overhang, the difference in height of the two playing surfaces is just greater but the marking options remain the same as a "normal" disc landing position as long as the overhang is a reasonably accessible playing surface where the player could choose to play their shot versus mark with a mini on the lower surface.

 

[R-Ogre]

Would need a picture

 

[XGumbyx]

Disc can be seen above the basket and to the left. If you follow the top tree trunk it is just below it and to the left on the edge. Depth is hard to see in the image but it is an overhang you can stand underneath. If you were to stand on the playing surface at basket level under the overhang you would be able to see about an inch of the disc hanging over the edge.

The upper playing surface is accessible and one could stand behind the disc where it lies however it is steep and with a 15ft drop I wouldn't recommend playing from the lie. However it could have been safely played from behind the lie without much risk.

 

[XGumbyx]

This overhang situation is not much different than say a disc landing on an uneven playing surface where part of the disc on the basket side is suspended an inch or two above the ground under it.

This could be semantics but I disagree. A rock on a playing surface is part of that playing surface. We are talking about two separate playing surfaces.

 

[XGumbyx]

If there's no reasonable way to get to the lie (for example, if it would be dangerous to get there), then it would be allowed to mark it next to the basket.

Here's the applicable Rules Q&A:


QA-POS-1: How do I mark a disc in an inaccessible location below the playing surface like a crevice? Is there a penalty?

The rules that apply to a disc above the playing surface also apply to a disc below the playing surface. If you can locate your disc in the crevice and no reasonable stance can be taken there, you can mark your lie directly above it on the playing surface without penalty. If the point directly above the disc is in the air or within a solid object, mark your lie at the first available spot back along the line of play.

If you could reasonably get on top of the overhang, things get a little less clear, to me.

This seems to establish a precedent for marking below the position of the disc. Extending this Q&A to you situation seems reasonable, to me:

QA-MAR-3: My disc is stuck in a tree, directly above the trunk. How do I mark it?
If there is room to mark your disc directly below it, that is what you do. If not, you mark at the first available spot back along the line of play.


This is also relevant:

QA-LIE-1: My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since it's above the creek? What if I'm on the bridge but over land?
A bridge is an example where one playing surface is vertically stacked above another playing surface. Each playing surface is treated independently. The bridge is in-bounds unless the TD has declared it to be OB, regardless of whether a playing surface above or below it is OB. If the two-meter rule is in use, it does not apply because your disc is on, not above, the playing surface. You mark your lie on the bridge, and there is no penalty.

Thanks curt, however in this circumstance I don't think any of those rulings are 100% relevant.

Re: QA-POS-1: in this case the lie IS accessible albeit slightly dangerous to our from. The player could however take relief behind the lie and the danger would be averted.

Re: QA-MAR-3: I don't think this comes into play either because the disc is on a legitimate playing surface and not suspended in a tree which is not a legitimate playing surface.

Re:QA-LIE-1: This may have some relevance, specifically the last sentence but only if the ground below the bridge was not OB. What is missing though is the fact that this situation has an overhanging disc which is pretty much the crux of the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see a rule or an example that fits this situation. It would be a pretty easy thing to clear up in the rulebook by adding a rule that states a disc must be played from the surface it Is on, or alternatively a disc can be played from a playing surface directly above or below a lie and the golfer is able to choose. Which brings me to another point, examples say that the golfer has two options as to where they can play their lie from, 20x30 cm behind the disc or 20x30cm behind the marker that marks the disc. Since it's not stated that a player must play from the playing surface they are on, then in the case of a rock overhang and a second playing surface directly below it, a player has three options, the two mentioned above plus a marker placed on the secondary surface directly above/below the lie.

 

[araytx]

I just finished a round with a friend and we had an odd situation happen on a hole that neither of us knew what the proper ruling was. A drive off the tee came to rest on a rock overhang about 15ft above the basket. The overhang is accessible so one could play from behind the lie however it is a bit dangerous to do so. This in itself isn't an issue, the complicated part is that the disk was on the very edge of the overhang with it's front edge over the edge by an inch or two. If it were a tree he could have just placed his marker directly underneath on the ground beside the basket and drop his putt in without taking any penalties but since it is a rock overhand and he technically could have played it from behind where the disc came to rest but if he were to mark the disc with his marker it would be marked 15ft directly underneath his disc on the playing surface of the basket.

In the end it was decided to just tap in without taking any strokes as it was not work the risk to play the disc where it was. It would however have been safe to take relief behind the disc in line with the basket.

What's the ruling?

First, XGUmby you are in the wrong section. You'd get more responses by placing a "question about rulings" in the Rules Questions and Discussion section of this forum.

Now on to the ruling (Correct one).

If there's no reasonable way to get to the lie (for example, if it would be dangerous to get there), then it would be allowed to mark it next to the basket.

Here's the applicable Rules Q&A:


QA-POS-1: How do I mark a disc in an inaccessible location below the playing surface like a crevice? Is there a penalty?

The rules that apply to a disc above the playing surface also apply to a disc below the playing surface. If you can locate your disc in the crevice and no reasonable stance can be taken there, you can mark your lie directly above it on the playing surface without penalty. If the point directly above the disc is in the air or within a solid object, mark your lie at the first available spot back along the line of play.

If you could reasonably get on top of the overhang, things get a little less clear, to me.

This seems to establish a precedent for marking below the position of the disc. Extending this Q&A to you situation seems reasonable, to me:

QA-MAR-3: My disc is stuck in a tree, directly above the trunk. How do I mark it?
If there is room to mark your disc directly below it, that is what you do. If not, you mark at the first available spot back along the line of play.


This is also relevant:

QA-LIE-1: My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since it's above the creek? What if I'm on the bridge but over land?
A bridge is an example where one playing surface is vertically stacked above another playing surface. Each playing surface is treated independently. The bridge is in-bounds unless the TD has declared it to be OB, regardless of whether a playing surface above or below it is OB. If the two-meter rule is in use, it does not apply because your disc is on, not above, the playing surface. You mark your lie on the bridge, and there is no penalty.

I am going to do three things.1) summary of the correct ruling and philosophy

2) refer you to one of many threads where the same/similar issue is legislated over and over. Fyi, that's called a prerube)

3) give applicable rules


1 -- simply in a TOURNAMENT SITUATION (if it's casual do what you want), the ruling is that if you are inbounds and on the ground, in an area where the TD has deemed it a playing surface, then you must play form that same surface. In general that is the rule, with only specific exceptions in the RUles Q&A. SO in your case he needs to play from the playing surface where his throw is (where it landed).

2 -- several years ago I went round and round with a guy about a similar issue until he finally admitted he was trying to find a way around the rule. It just doesn't work that way. IN BOUNDS, on the ground, on a playing surface, means you play form that same surface. Vertically stacked playing surfaces existence or not can't change that. See https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53670, & https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137057, among many)

3. The rule is simple. Combine 802.05, 802.06 C&D and voila!

QA - LIE - 1 which was quoted CLEARLY states that vertically stacked playing surfaces are treated independently. So you CANNOT claim a rule allows you to move from one inbounds on the ground lie on a playing surface to another.

 

[XGumbyx]

Thanks araytx.

I believe the sections you posted are the relevant ones . 802.06 B, C and D combined state

B) Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play.

C: When the thrown disc is not on the in-bounds playing surface, or when the lie is to be moved by rule, the player marks the lie by placing a mini marker disc in accordance with the applicable rule.

D: Marking the lie in a manner other than described above is a marking violation.

Although I don't really think C comes in to play here.

 

[Cgkdisc]

This could be semantics but I disagree. A rock on a playing surface is part of that playing surface. We are talking about two separate playing surfaces.

If you are able to walk from the ground by the basket to where the disc lies on the overhang, isn't that the same playing surface?

 

[Smigles]

Disc can be seen above the basket and to the left. If you follow the top tree trunk it is just below it and to the left on the edge. Depth is hard to see in the image but it is an overhang you can stand underneath. If you were to stand on the playing surface at basket level under the overhang you would be able to see about an inch of the disc hanging over the edge.

The upper playing surface is accessible and one could stand behind the disc where it lies however it is steep and with a 15ft drop I wouldn't recommend playing from the lie. However it could have been safely played from behind the lie without much risk.

Definitly play it from where it lies.

There is nothing in the rules that lets you pick which playing surface you play from.

QA-POS-1: How do I mark a disc in an inaccessible location below the playing surface like a crevice? Is there a penalty?

QA-MAR-3: My disc is stuck in a tree, directly above the trunk. How do I mark it?
If there is room to mark your disc directly below it, that is what you do. If not, you mark at the first available spot back along the line of play.

Pos1: the disc is accessible, so this does not apply.

Pos 3: same here realy.

You can't just declare a lie "unplayable" or "unaccessible" just cause it is slightly uncomfortable to get there.