When is Par 3 no longer realistic?

[denny ritner]

I am aggravated at seeing the top pro women finishing over par at worlds, with the leaderboard following them around displaying how far over par they are during the final 9. The women should be going from different tees or have different pars or something, because par is not just a number; it is a value judgement.

Pro women and pro men should absolutely play from different tees at worlds. The first year that we had a separate woman's division at Players Cup. I followed the women around during the final round. The competition was close and Burl prevailed by 1 over Des and Val and 2 over Angela, but the golf itself was all about not making mistakes and minimizing bogeys. There were very few opportunities for the ladies to be aggressive and try to take strokes from the others. The course was designed intentionally for the guys that throw 400-450 ft. with control. Avery shot -21 for 3 rounds to win and Burl was +10 for 3 rounds.

 

[whiz]

The hole in question (#6) seems very threeable imo. If you can throw two shots of 325' accurately you are putting. What is so hard about that? In addition, the fence on the right would tempt me to try to throw a long distance roller. If the roller turns over to much you always have the fence to stop it. OP, do you ever try throwing rollers? This hole somewhat reminds me of hole 12 at Renaissance Gold. It is pretty open but with OB on both side of the fairway. Even most intermediate players are trying to get a three.

 

[harr0140]

Par needs to be defined by the PDGA in my opinion. They do have design guidelines that take into account tree density and distance, but those are only design guidelines. This needs to become part of the course installation . . . determining what par is on each hole (FROM EACH TEE) and it needs to be consistant and not subjective. Everything is a par 3 is a joke to me. Par in my mind should be based on what an average 1000 rated player would shoot on the hole over and over and over. This is just one of those times disc golf should fall in line with what golf has laid out before them!

 

[Cgkdisc]

Note: ball golf does have standards for par for each skill level a set of tees is designed for just like we do in disc golf. All tees do not use a scratch (expert) open golfer but a scratch (expert) player of that skill level to set par.

 

[scuddyp4]

Its still all going to a total at the end,so it doesn't really matter,call it a par 20 if that makes you feel better.

I agree with this. The more important thing is what your final score is. Not what you did on a single hole and whether it's a par 3 or par 4 your total score will be the same.

There's a hole on my home course that was my nemisis for years. I would par it maybe 1/10imes. Long story short. I found the shot that worked best for the hole and have had several birdies on the hole now.

It sounds like a big hyzer that is thrown out over the OB and fades back inbounds might be a good shot for this hole. That's what I would try.

 

[harr0140]

Note: ball golf does have standards for par for each skill level a set of tees is designed for just like we do in disc golf. All tees do not use a scratch (expert) open golfer but a scratch (expert) player of that skill level to set par.

What do you think it would take to get the PDGA involved in certifying courses and would it be worth the time and effort? Would course municipalities and such even bother contacting the PDGA to do this?

My thoughts are if you want to host a PDGA event, you need to have the course certified beforehand by the PDGA to establish the par. It would be the equivalent of having a USGA official come out and "Rate" your golf course.

 

[Cgkdisc]

scuddyp4 - I found the shot that worked best for the hole and have had several birdies on the hole now.

How can you say you shot birdies unless you know the "correct" par for the hole?

 

[Cgkdisc]

What do you think it would take to get the PDGA involved in certifying courses and would it be worth the time and effort? Would course municipalities and such even bother contacting the PDGA to do this?

My thoughts are if you want to host a PDGA event, you need to have the course certified beforehand by the PDGA to establish the par. It would be the equivalent of having a USGA official come out and "Rate" your golf course.

Something along these lines will get started in 2012 working at least from the top events down but it won't just be about courses but all the facilities and resources available in a location to support an event. CVBs (Convention & Visitor Bureaus) may pick up the tab in some cases.

 

[scuddyp4]

So you've never played miniature golf?

http://www.proputters.com/history/2010s/2011/national/2011_ppa_national_championship.htm

I've never seen a 3 year old make an ace on a 220' disc golf hole. I have however seen a 3 year old make an ace in putt-putt. There is a huge difference IMO.

 

[Alin]

I 3'd it 3 of the first 5 times I played it but very, very, very few times sense then.

When I'm at Cliff I expect bogey 4 on holes 1, 16, and 18. If I make the par 3 then all the better. Going in knowing that, there are plenty of holes for me to make birdie 2 so I can offset the bogey 4's. Then again, I have 2 aces out there...hole 3 and hole 7...with many more holes that are aceable!!

 

[gotcha]

I've never seen a 3 year old make an ace on a 220' disc golf hole. I have however seen a 3 year old make an ace in putt-putt. There is a huge difference IMO.

You missed the point. One can have a par 2 hole. Ever heard of the Tiki course at the Blockhouse in Spotsylvania, Virginia? 18 holes ..... all par 2.

:thmbup:

 

[gotcha]

By the way, did you happen to see the cash prize payout for the miniature golf tournament I posted up thread? Not bad....for par 2 golf!

 

[harr0140]

Something along these lines will get started in 2012 working at least from the top events down but it won't just be about courses but all the facilities and resources available in a location to support an event. CVBs (Convention & Visitor Bureaus) may pick up the tab in some cases.

Sounds great!

 

[scuddyp4]

How can you say you shot birdies unless you know the "correct" par for the hole?

Because I do know the correct par for the hole. The point of my post wasn't that I didn't know the correct par. It was that there is a certain shot that makes birdie much more possible and makes par almost automatic. I was trying to tell the OP that he should try and figure out what that shot is for the hole he was talking about.

 

[biscoe]

You missed the point. One can have a par 2 hole. Ever heard of the Tiki course at the Blockhouse in Spotsylvania, Virginia? 18 holes ..... all par 2.

:thmbup:

i would argue 17 par 2 and one par 3... (the widowmaker as they call it)

 

[scuddyp4]

You missed the point. One can have a par 2 hole. Ever heard of the Tiki course at the Blockhouse in Spotsylvania, Virginia? 18 holes ..... all par 2.

:thmbup:

Yes I've heard of the course. It's like putt-putt for disc golf in that it's a novelty and is more of an exception to any rule about par out there. It makes it fun on a novelty course like Tiki. I don't think it's smart to say, "Well Tiki has par 2's so lets put in a 120' hole and call it a par 2." That's not what most people are looking for when they go to a DG course.

Tiki is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Stud Muffin]

Because I do know the correct par for the hole. The point of my post wasn't that I didn't know the correct par. It was that there is a certain shot that makes birdie much more possible and makes par almost automatic. I was trying to tell the OP that he should try and figure out what that shot is for the hole he was talking about.

lol
Yes, I know what that shot is, a 660' drive down the center of the fairway, lol.

 

[scarpfish]

Definition: Par is the number of strokes an expert golfer is expected to need to complete an individual hole, or all the holes on a golf course.

I agree with this part. If people want to come up with these silly concepts of skill level based pars, public pars, etc., then fine, but that not what the concept of par ever meant by its original concept.

The value assigned to represent par for an individual hole is always comprised of two putts and the number of strokes it should take to reach the green. Holes typically are listed as par-3, par-4 or par-5, although par-6 is also occasionally encountered. A par-4 hole is going to be longer than a par-3 hole, and a par-5 longer than a par-4 (with rare exceptions).

On a par-3, an expert golfer is expected to need only one stroke to reach the green, followed by two putts. On a par-4, he should need two strokes to reach the green, followed by two putts; and so on.

This part only applies to ball golf, since what constitutes as a "green" in each sport is a completely different animal.

Once a ball golfer reaches a green, any club they used to get to that point is now pretty much useless, and they pull out a completely different piece of equipment, (which was essentially useless prior to getting on the green) to complete the hole. Generally, considering the size of the green, the ball & the hole, its only logical to see why a golfer should get two strokes to complete the hole. One to get it close, and one to get it in.

But in disc golf, no such functional equipment restriction exists, and the edge of the "green" is an often unmarked circle (and is always a circle) with a 10 meter radius around wherever the basket is located. Once a scratch golfer reaches a point inside this circle, he will more often than not make more putts than miss. He should not need two shots from our "green" like a ball golfer should on his. Hence my definition of "par" being the the number of shots to make our "green" +1. If that means, said scratch golfer can consistently make it to the circle in one drive, and then make his putt, than I'm sorry, but that's a Par 2 hole.

 

[scuddyp4]

lol
Yes, I know what that shot is, a 660' drive down the center of the fairway, lol.

Yea...That would work, if you've got it in the bag. :thmbup:

 

[E_Rock25]

I think our pars in DG are way to easy for the most part. IMO it looks ridiculous when pros are shooting -27 or better on a "Gold Level" course.

OP I think the par is far. What is your rating? Are you one of the top 50 players in the world? If not than you should not be able to get par on every hole you play. I am not trying to be a DB but this whole par thing is ridiculous.

Case in point BRP has some par 4's that should never be par 4's unless you are playing a casual round and want to make yourself feel better about your ability. Hole 18/19 is 750' wide open with a ditch running at about 450'. I always get a 4 on this hole and that is course par but I play it as a par 3 because if I throw two 350' shots I have a chance at a 50' putt for a 3. I have 3ed this hole 2 or 3 times and it felt great. Putting in DG is way easier than ball golf so the whole 2 putt idea is BS IMO.

If we start making our greens harder than maybe 2 putts would be exceptable but as it stands the greens are for the most part to easy. If a pro player is within 40' they should make the putt IMO so calculating 2 putts into the par for most holes is crazy. I can hit 25' putts 80% of the time and 40'ers 30% of the time. Why should we give a player 2 throws to par when they are within 40'? I am just getting started as a course designer and this is going to be one of my main focuses when designing tournament quality courses. Hard greens will make DG more respectable IMO.

I don't play ball golf anymore but I never expected to shoot par or under unless I was playing a real easy par 3 type course. I was never a good ball golfer so I should not be able to par many holes IMO. I am not a bad Disc golfer and I shoot scratch for the most part but I am no where near a great DGer and I think I should shoot over par more offten than I do. That is why unless a hole is over 800' or has a ton of obstacles preventing a stright line to the basket I play all holes as par 3's.