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Why does an x-step add distance?

This was kind of my rudimentary thinking also, but I think there is more to it. I think people end up gaining more than that 5mph. Accelerating out of moving at 5mph is going to be more effective than accelerating from 0mph.

I can't think of a reason it would be fundamentally different from accelerating the hit. Interesting stuff. Ugh, Im gonna have to learn this now I guess.

I think this makes sense if you mean the downward/vertical acceleration into the plant in addition to the horizontal speed along the ground. I think the details of how that transfers through the hip action and rest of the form etc. may be a little more complex and determine efficiency.

New learning, yay!
 
I think this makes sense if you mean the downward/vertical acceleration into the plant in addition to the horizontal speed along the ground. I think the details of how that transfers through the hip action and rest of the form etc. may be a little more complex and determine efficiency.

New learning, yay!

Ya, I won't claim to know wtf I'm talking about lol. I did go play with the x-step in field work today though. It seems like it won't be as daunting as I imagined, I was actually able to get my envy's out to about 325 doing it, which is slightly farther than I usually chuck those. That was just with a super slow x-step to try to keep the feeling intact.

From my preliminary thoughts after doing it, it does seem to have the potential to make the whole action flow more smoothly. Curious what happens when I add what feels like actual power, which I do think I can feel just playing around without actually trying to throw a disc.
 
In the past 19 months I've gradually moved from a standstill to a one-step, and now have reached my 8-speeds with an x-step on the course. It's taken a lot of field work to get this far. Most of 2021 was a one-step when I decided to focus on course bagging, and just started the x-step this past April with putters.

What I learned from the standstill is weight shifting. The one-step crushing the can bringing more momentum with some good follow thru. So far, the x-step is more compact with more freedom on body movement, bringing more follow thru. I do think its easier on the body compared to the standstill. It will be interesting to know what I'm feeling with the 3-step, and my return to a 4-step which was flawed two years ago.

My goal when I began with the standstill and when I returned to the 4-step (however long that takes) at age 58 was 200 with a putter, and 300 with a driver on average, happy with that. Prior to working on the standstill my putter was about 125, driver 220 sloppy 4-step. I'm hitting 200 with the putter on the x-step and have touched over 300 on an occasion with the driver on a one-step in fairway and off fairway longer, but on average about 250 depending on what disc I'm throwing and how well, a few rounds ago I parked 285 and 270, still can get sloppy at 220-240. After playing 3 rounds this morning I decided to give myself a sneak preview with 11 speeds practice field x-step, 3 discs 18 throws. A few star mamba's hit around 300 on a turnover, and a few waves and orbital's straight middle 250 needing more height for more distance, will work on it. My TL3 ending week 2 on the practice field was hitting 260. It's going to be really hard not to use that x-step with the star mamba on the course when I need a turnover, I promised myself no skipping ahead, I still have 9-speeds waiting for the x-step. I think it's reasonable expecting to reach 280 on an x-step average with the 11-speeds when its time to work on the 3-step with putters.

For my purposes using building blocks to reach my goals has helped tremendously and takes a lot of patience. To my wife's dismay every time I pass thru the kitchen, I practice the 3-step, and I don't expect field work with putters until around Labor Day if not a little past it. The putter has reached my original goal, and I'm wondering how much more I can get, and what about the drivers?
 
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Ya, I won't claim to know wtf I'm talking about lol. I did go play with the x-step in field work today though. It seems like it won't be as daunting as I imagined, I was actually able to get my envy's out to about 325 doing it, which is slightly farther than I usually chuck those. That was just with a super slow x-step to try to keep the feeling intact.

From my preliminary thoughts after doing it, it does seem to have the potential to make the whole action flow more smoothly. Curious what happens when I add what feels like actual power, which I do think I can feel just playing around without actually trying to throw a disc.

Might be able to offer a thought there. I do a 90%/10% ratio of standstill to X-step work now. The 90% is learning to fix the fundamentals and identify new problems. At the end of that I see if I can get the learning to apply to my X-step. Every time, the more I focus on the smallest possible X-step, the faster I get the new learning to apply to it. I think that's one reason it always has given me a 10-15% distance advantage despite being flawed.

One key is maintaining the rear hip hinge and posture when you transition off the drive leg into the plant. The better you master that, the more efficiency you get in transition. It's possible new problems will pop up elsewhere but in my experience improving the standstill always also makes the X-step form improve in short order.

In my case there has also been a bit of learning in the other direction too since my body is more comfortable getting the CoG forward and my legs resisting the ground in an X-step than standstill (psychological problem). So a little experimenting can be valuable when you get stuck.
 
The swing is a dance/waltz.

The X step helps us flow through the dance allowing us to keep our weight in balance and check when done properly. As well, a proper x-step helps you load into the plant.

What most end up doing is seeing pro's make this Massive x-step and they mimic that and leave their toes so far out that they loose all the benefits from the balance and the drive from the rear leg into the plant.

You don't really need to "run up" to do this. If your x-step is solid, and your balance is good, you can drive from the rear leg into the plant generating more force. This is why I'm not very huge on running at your throw, you're taking it from a dance to a sprint. And when you run, you're essentially falling forward but continually catching yourself to propel yourself forward.

So, if you're starting from a run, you're already starting off balance as you've not learned that balance mechanic yet to keep your weight centered.
Then we look at pro's with this larger x-step, that comes from keeping their balance centered while moving at a faster rate to gain some power into the plant.

Standstills can generate a ton of power with proper mechanics, but I think they require more mechanics than using the x-step to generate that power. So for lower powered shots that require more finesse and accuracy, a standstill is far better practice than any run up or step style throw as we can set our base on the target line and do the motion.
But in turn, a standstill encourages more muscling in the throw. Learning to drive with the body on a standstill I think is a great thing. But it's harder to remember to drive with the body on a standstill vs using the x-step. As the dance encourages flow vs a mechanical style motion.

So the X-Step can be a bit of a challenge in a way, because if you're not balancing properly, and orienting your feet in a way to provide you power, you can slip into other bad posture/balance issues that will limit your power more than help your power.

And its very easy to get sloppy with your x-step as you go through the circle of practice.

Our bodies are lazy, and they will always try and take the lazy way out, and a power throw requires you to not be lazy. It needs the wind up and the flow, not the half motions that we tend to lazy our way into.

I struggle with shoulder turn and hip turn on this particular thing, as with back issues and such, I'll get lazy trying to protect my back, but in turn damage my shoulder as my body doesn't go through the full range of motions needed and I end up muscling the disc vs driving with my body.

As with a lot of things out there, it's important that we set things up for success. And part of that is to dance to our full potential on the swing. When you build something, the more time you spend setting up, the easier the job is.
So the more effort you put into your setup in the swing, such as the hip load, balance and back swing, the easier the swing will be as you're set for success, vs trying to rush through it.

This factors into putting as well.
5 footer or 50 footer.
Go through your routine, do all the motions for a putt regardless of the distance. Don't take the lazy way out, even though its a tap in.

As for pro's in their practice swings, I have no clue what they are doing half the time, cause I'm watching them do their practice stuff and routine and 90% of the things they are doing dont look like they are actually trying to set their brain/body up for the shot.
Holding the disc 3 feet higher and looking down it before throwing the shot, that stuff makes no sense to me. You're not telling your body what you want to do by holding the disc 3 feet higher than your intended trajectory.

Then in turn this creates bad habits with players as they emulate pro's without any understanding of what that person's doing.

In ball golf, stuff like this is like a waggle. I've seen a few video's where people make a big deal out of the "pump fake" some big arm throwers have in their swing. That's a waggle. That's not really part of the swing, its just the thing they do. Following tips like these can help, or they could have poor impacts to your game as you try and implement something into your swing that doesn't follow the basics or the flow of your dance.

And that's where things are most important, playing your game and doing your dance.

And I'll tell this, tall players are the hardest ones to give lessons to. Even being 6'3 myself, I can explain the complications of it, but the longer levers make it really hard to get people into a flow vs a compact player, especially if you're not previously athletic.

So, tldr.
X-step helps balance and flow to set your body for success when done properly.
 
Ya, I won't claim to know wtf I'm talking about lol. I did go play with the x-step in field work today though. It seems like it won't be as daunting as I imagined, I was actually able to get my envy's out to about 325 doing it, which is slightly farther than I usually chuck those. That was just with a super slow x-step to try to keep the feeling intact.

From my preliminary thoughts after doing it, it does seem to have the potential to make the whole action flow more smoothly. Curious what happens when I add what feels like actual power, which I do think I can feel just playing around without actually trying to throw a disc.

I like the slow X step.. It helps my timing and hip position. I've tried to speed it up, add a battering ram etc and really struggled with too much information. If I think too much my swing goes to hell. Work with your timing and don't force it. (too much :) ) I'm guessing the reason it is working is because you are using more legs/hips/body and less arm. It's crazy when you go to throw nice and easy and blow past the target, that's what you want.
 
I like the slow X step.. It helps my timing and hip position. I've tried to speed it up, add a battering ram etc and really struggled with too much information. If I think too much my swing goes to hell. Work with your timing and don't force it. (too much :) ) I'm guessing the reason it is working is because you are using more legs/hips/body and less arm. It's crazy when you go to throw nice and easy and blow past the target, that's what you want.

It's incredibly difficult to take your x-step to the next level in terms of speed, but it is clearly possible (Dickerson is a good example of this imo).

You're thinking along the right lines with the battering ram.

Imagine running towards a door with a battering ram, how much separation (x-factor) that weight would create as it pulled back on your arms/upper body, and how intentional you would have to be about the brace to take advantage of that weight (it would feel like an eternity). Most people throw the disc way too early because there is no respect for the amount of weight in a disc. A battering ram forces you to respect its mass. A disc you have to learn to respect.
 
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It's incredibly difficult to take your x-step to the next level in terms of speed, but it is clearly possible (Dickerson is a good example of this imo).

This is my current favorite example of a full send for the "vertically inclined":
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155576254558318

Really any GG long drive, but there he has interesting hop/shuffle hops that he doesn't always use. Getting lots of bounce/up-down momentum heading into the transition.
 
Look for videos of Jim Oates driving. He can bomb with no X step. He came in 2nd in the Pro Masters in 2003
 
I do a walk-up and find I get more distance than a standstill throw. But the timing has to be right. If I speed up any part of my walk-up, even just a little bit, my timing and throw is off.
 
This is my current favorite example of a full send for the "vertically inclined":
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155576254558318

Really any GG long drive, but there he has interesting hop/shuffle hops that he doesn't always use. Getting lots of bounce/up-down momentum heading into the transition.

Yeah I think of that vertical/swedish throw (GG, Brinster) as taking more advantage of gravity and the ground to power the throw, where as Dickerson and Lizotte are translating some more horizontal momentum/speed.

I do a walk-up and find I get more distance than a standstill throw. But the timing has to be right. If I speed up any part of my walk-up, even just a little bit, my timing and throw is off.

Translating the power of the x-step is all about balance IMO. Most people get out of balance and never translate any of it into the throw.
 
Look for videos of Jim Oates driving. He can bomb with no X step. He came in 2nd in the Pro Masters in 2003

Graham Russel
Throws 450-500 standstills.


I do a walk-up and find I get more distance than a standstill throw. But the timing has to be right. If I speed up any part of my walk-up, even just a little bit, my timing and throw is off.

See my previous comments. =)
 
First, I want to thank everyone for one the best threads currently on DGCR. Very useful stuff here with no drama....

I've been throwing from a standstill for the last year or so. I was getting really frustrated with inconsistency with even a small runup/x-step so I decided to try eliminating it. My scores have definitely improved even if my max distance has not increased much.

One of the real advantages of the standstill is the ability to handle crappy teepads. When others are complaining about short pads or icy/wet conditions, I don't have any trouble. This extends to any long second shots. It's pretty easy to keep from foot-faulting when you don't need to do a runup on the fairway.

Finally, I do think there are physical benefits to standstill. I think if you do a runup/x-step correctly it might be fine, but if your form is not great it can put a lot of pressure on your ankles/knees/hips. I feel less run down now with the standstill.

Having said all that, I can appreciate the loss of max distance I am taking. Getting an extra 30-40 feet would be really useful for some situations to turn a 4 into a 3.... I might revisit a small runup when I think my mechanics are good.
 
One of the real advantages of the standstill is the ability to handle crappy teepads. When others are complaining about short pads or icy/wet conditions, I don't have any trouble. This extends to any long second shots. It's pretty easy to keep from foot-faulting when you don't need to do a runup on the fairway.

This right here. =)

So many people cannot throw small Teepads, cause they think they need to be james conrad.

And this idea that tee pads need to be bigger. meh.

Suck less I say. hahaha.

Tee pads actually screw me a lot of times cause I don't do the walk up traditionally at all.

So being able to throw stand stills is really nice.

It's better to have your game under control and be where you want vs having errant shots that cause you to scramble. so if you can play your game all the time, that's a win.

I'd have to see what you're doing for a runup/walkup to really know what part of the mechanic is hurting you.

A lot of times its how you move yourself on the teepad that throws your timing off.
 
First, I want to thank everyone for one the best threads currently on DGCR. Very useful stuff here with no drama....

<3

I've been throwing from a standstill for the last year or so. I was getting really frustrated with inconsistency with even a small runup/x-step so I decided to try eliminating it. My scores have definitely improved even if my max distance has not increased much.

One of the real advantages of the standstill is the ability to handle crappy teepads. When others are complaining about short pads or icy/wet conditions, I don't have any trouble. This extends to any long second shots. It's pretty easy to keep from foot-faulting when you don't need to do a runup on the fairway.

Finally, I do think there are physical benefits to standstill. I think if you do a runup/x-step correctly it might be fine, but if your form is not great it can put a lot of pressure on your ankles/knees/hips. I feel less run down now with the standstill.

Having said all that, I can appreciate the loss of max distance I am taking. Getting an extra 30-40 feet would be really useful for some situations to turn a 4 into a 3.... I might revisit a small runup when I think my mechanics are good.

I agree that it's often easier to isolate & eliminate the causes of ankle/knee/hip pressure and stress with standstill refinement. My knee is so sensitive to any further abuse that I've learned to listen to it very closely and take the time to keep it happy and healthy.

You can bring in so much more force on an x-step that IMO it's worth taking the time to keep massaging out the kinks before worrying about longer runups/bigger hops etc. Even among the top players, some of their braces look fairly hard on the plant leg and it makes me wince. I worry how some of them will be faring when they're 40 y/o.

I'll keep reporting out that each time I work hard on cleaning up standstills, it's also easier to improve it in a compact x-step. Anecdotally, I just had another 95% standstill throws vs 5% or less x-step session this AM. Once again, all the fussing on the standstill made improving the X-Step way easier with nearly instant results.

As we're talking about this I'm wondering what proportion of people out there is throwing with a clean, long swing but did the opposite - never did standstills but always X-Stepped. I imagine the way a lot of people are learning isn't strictly the "standstills only until... XYZ criterion" approach.
 
Kristin Tattar and Juliana Korver don't really do a complete X-step, and they've done "pretty well". KT just does this little hop where her left foot is right behind her right.
https://youtu.be/UquVKYcIQW8?t=8

You guys all know JK, right? The 50+ female DGPT Rookie of the Year who has won some other stuff too. jk
 
My knee is so sensitive to any further abuse that I've learned to listen to it very closely and take the time to keep it happy and healthy.

I get so much crap for my method of throwing, which I don't like to show to others cause I don't want them to copy it.
It's not necessarily "bad technique" but the traditional method is far "easier" to use.

I picked it up from another guy here locally, and enjoy the rhythm of it, and it protects my knee's because there is less side loading.



Kristin Tattar and Juliana Korver don't really do a complete X-step, and they've done "pretty well". KT just does this little hop where her left foot is right behind her right.
https://youtu.be/UquVKYcIQW8?t=8

You guys all know JK, right? The 50+ female DGPT Rookie of the Year who has won some other stuff too. jk

I got a huge crack out of the NT Finalle last year cause the 2 oldest FPO ladies, Hokom and Korver, were the only 2 ladies to not bogey one of the holes which was really hard. Paige took like a 6 or an 8 or some crap, and korver and hokom took their 4's or 5's, whatever it was. I forget now.

She's super cool, I chatted with her a bit.
 

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