Would love to have a video critique on driving form.

[sweet1ar]

I have been a long time reader of this site. I believe this site is by far the most educational I have come across. My hat goes off to the guys on here that take the time in all the article write ups and feedback. To the point of this post, I would love to have my form critqued. I have been playing for about 10 months now and I need some constructional criticism. In video critique #1, I'm throwing a 150g Star Teebird and trying to throw it with a bit of hyzer so it would flip up a bit. I threw it about 275' roughly. I accidentally was paying attention to my friend video camera, so it did not go very far. Critque #2 I threw a 150g Champion Teebird with slight hyzer which would flip up. The disc went about 325' roughly. Video critique #3 I threw a beat echo star destroyer on an anyhzer line. I threw it about 350' roughly. This is the first time I saw myself on video. I think my reach back is not far enough back from what I can see robbing me of distance. I would love to hear all your thoughts. I will try and post weekly/bi weekly videos on my progress, if time permitting and I get some feedback. If there is a better way in which I can attach these videos, please let me know. Or how I'm shooting them. This was done with my iphone. This is my first time doing it, so please let me know if I can improve on the video capturing.

Video #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbfKf7JKjg
Vidoe #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrFmRDRBOFA
Video #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMj69_lTRZg

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[JR]

Welcome. You can try to attach videos to be visible on this site by clicking the youtube button above the message window and pasting the link to the video in between the brackets.

Your reach back is severely limited. For a full reach back you need the x step and plant step to land so that the heels and the back of the head point at the target. You were running in an arc mildly adding some power to the throw. It is a compromise between adding power and reducing accuracy and consistency. You could run in a straight line for max accuracy or curve even more and pivot with the left ball of the foot in the x step then the right heel in the plant (final step before the rip).

It is normal for people to lose balance reaching back far and subconscious preventing of falling down takes over easily and messes up the throw. It can take months to develop a full reach back that is accurate as it can be. A shorter reach back will be more accurate. Adding reach back changes many things so follow up videos are good.

The anny you threw had you tilt right from not only the leg placement but the tilted hip too. The longest lever that your arm can make comes from the arm moving in a 90 degree angle relative to the rotation axis of the body which comes from the point in the foot around which you pivot on the ground. Tilting the hips moves mass outside of that axis making your foot pivot slower than optimal. A straight spine would help there and planting the final step more to the left to tilt you to the same anny angle.

On the second throw your arm followed through lower than the original plane was which tilts/wobbles the disc anny late in the throw. Rotating the thumb down counter clock wise quickly right after the rip helps in lengthening the arm follow through adding power and allowing for easier maintaining of the same arm plane. It works by pushing the shoulder blade away from the spine allowing the arm to move more because the back muscles don't restrict the movement of the shoulder blade as early and as much. Since you are a muscular guy it is even more important for you to clear the back muscles with the shoulder blade.

You are not twisting with the hips and turning the shoulders sapping the power that drives the lever of the arm which does not multiply your power as much as it could. Flexibility training might help but also if you have muscle imbalances between the sides the weaker side might not be able to fire properly or keep up with the other side. The only cure is to work out the weaker side if it is the problem.

The left leg is well off of the ground before the grip. Standing on one leg in front of a wall push the arm straight with the fist touching the wall. What happens? Newtonian physics at play. Translated to disc golf throw terms Newton described forces or movements as the arm unbending will rotate the lower body to the left and back. If it is not countered by the leg you lose much of the arm power. Martial artists know this since you cannot hit hard if your back leg is not grounded as the punch strikes the target. Feldberg uses a different kind of rear leg countering of the arm moving forward and right by moving the left leg forward and right airborne. You did not do that. Your left leg goes up.

 

[sweet1ar]

Thanks for the critique JR. I have had to read your article several times to grasp some of your concepts. And I'm still reading to get the full meaning. Very good critique. I did go back out the other day and worked on a few of the suggestions you made. Focusing on the thumb downward did help me keep the same arm plane. Assuming when you say thumb down you are referring to the base of your thumb. I was able to throw my putters on a much better plane with less OAT. Same with my Buzzz's. I did do a few videos of extending the arm during the reach back, but they were pretty ugly throws. I would call them worm burners (severe OAC with anny angle). I still need some work on it before I post some newer videos. I use to have severe OAT when doing a full reach back. Mainly due to the fact that I was throwing too fast of disc (boss, firebird, hornet, etc...), which engraved bad form in my mechanics. This is the reason I have shortened my reach back as I have tried to correct my form. I watched alot of the Dan Beato videos and the articles Blake has written on here to help break me of the bad habits, including discing down. I spent weeks out in field throwin dx rocs, pro buzzz's, and wizards to correct the OAT. It has improved, but as you can see I still have work to do. Another question I have is when you say the leg is well off the ground before the grip. When should my left leg be following through with the release? You said the grip and I'm trying to better understand when that is. Or was it suppose to be the rip? I will watch some of the pro's in slow motion and then compare it to my throw to better see how they twist with the hips and shoulders and when there left leg follows through.

Thank you again JR for the quick response and great feedback. I will try to get out in the field as much as possible this week to try and keep working on the suggestions you have made.

Andrew

 

[JR]

Sorry about the typo it was supposed to be rip not grip. OAT or lack thereof more specifically is the meter for how much the arm should rotate counter clockwise. Pros rotate the tip of the thumb to face directly down and there is a difference to having the palm face the ground which is way better than the thumb being pointed up like a hitch hiker. Consistency, accuracy, distance and cleanness of form are the meters for how long to keep the rear leg on the ground. If you are not using the Feldy leg kick that moves the left leg forward and right after pushing so much forward, not up, that the heel is at most at knee height. Higher than that often means not enough weight shift forward and unoptimal rotation speed of the body to the right. Sapping the hip twist speed especially but also later movements.

I'd try a longer reach back in increments after applying the thumb tip pointing at the ground follow through to see at which reach back distance your form starts to suffer. Then staying at just beyond clean form to push you to beyond comfort zone to make you learn.

 

[sweet1ar]

JR,

Do you by chance know of a a slow motion video in which will give me a good view of the hip and shoulder rotation along with the planted left foot during the rip? I looked at a video posted on here with Will Schusterick in slow motion, but you had commented he hadn't twisted much to the right. I have been playing my video in slow motion (.125) against the Will Video (Schusterick Throw Analysis) and I can see where I'm not rotating my shoulders. Will is basically facing the target after the rip of his disc where I am not. Also, I can see where my left foot is lifting up a bit prior to the rip. But, I would like to see a video where the person had good form in which I should build my foundation and compare my throw with.

Thanks again JR for the great feedback. I have been more looking at videos and analyzing my form then playing lately. I'll be able to get out in the field to practice this weekend.

Andrew

 

[JR]

There are varying degrees of hip twist in these throws but look at Markus Källström in the first to throw pairs he is in a green shirt and compare him to the others. Notice how his plant step stays in plave from bracing the leg super hard. He lifts weights and has huge leg and lower torso muscles. Markus does lift his leg a bit here but on others shots he is doubly planted at the rip. IRC this site had some vids of him being planted with the left leg. In this following video Avery in the second throw he makes might have been airborne or the lift might have replanted at the rip i cannot say. He has the tip of the toe on the ground to make being planted easier and it also comes from pushing with the leg especially the calf and the ankle and toes. In the final pair Nate Doss almost nails it. He probably has some benefit form the foot sliding toe down even though it is not an optimal base to push off of.



In case you want to see it larger than here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs

I would also compare Garrett Gurthie in his hip action vs Markus. Garrett is probably twisting the hips harder with the muscles relatively and Markus is bracing harder shifting the momentum fully. Such a hard bracing is probably quite taxing to the body and Markus warms up and stretches well before rounds and even during rounds.

In the next clip shot two years after the one i'll link next Avery had learned from noticing in the earlier video that his rear leg lifts up. It did here too but possibly not harmfully at 1:55 and 2:50 and his sidearms had the rear leg planted at the rip. The 360 was also somewhat effective although not a normal throw because he had to avoid trampling me because i had to be as close to the front of the tee lying down on my back to get any 3D effect going . Too bad Youtube could not detect the material as 3D. OTOH lcgm8 has taken long strides in 3D editing since and this video looks really flat vs can be pulled out of the same video.


or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2FKSiZPHWE

The two years earlier video in the same place at Tali, Helsinki, Finland:

or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSZyYAVPbs

Sorry i don't have time to look for more and better executed throws now. There might be perfect throws in slo mo out there so i'd use the search function on Youtube. Disc golf slow motion for example.

I'd benchmark different players and try to pick the optimal parts of the execution or do even better myself for form. From Markus you can see how fast and far following through the hip twist is and Linus the guy with the left arm hockey slap shot shoulders. Check out Youtube for lcgm8 Scandinavian Open 2010 and watch the shoulder action of Daniel Strandberg. He is really quick.

 

[sweet1ar]

This is week #2 on my driving form. I have posted two more videos. One I'm throwing a 150g Teebird. It went about 350' with hardly any wind. I threw it basically flat. The second throw is with the Prodigy M3, max weight. It went about 300' feet and faded left at the end. For all the haters of Prodigy, I'm quite impressed with their mid range molds. I can't handle the drivers with my form, so I'll leave those for the big arms. I did not get to practice in the fields as much this week, so as you can see my reach back is still far from ideal. I can also tell that I'm not fully rotating the hips and shoulders. My left foot seems more planted this time than last week, but I can't quite tell if I am on the right track. My body after the follow threw was a bit sloppy as well. I was really trying to throw a bit harder to try to get max distance. The only piece I really incorporated this week, than last, was a run up facing the target initially. I have found I am much more accurate by doing this. In the past, I had a tendency to have more OAT, so I had stopped doing it till the beginning of this week. I have added at least 50' of distance and a ton more accuracy with my throws. I'm starting to get my super beat up wizard out to 225'-250'. Something, I have never been able to accomplish.

This coming week I'm going to try to practice more than play. I spent a good bulk of my week helping a beginning disc golf player out in the field. Plus, I had to go out and try throwing my new Prodigy Mid Ranges out on the course. I"m a bit of disc junkie. I may try to work on the Dan Beato video to help get more comfortable with a full reach back. When I'm throwing, I feel like I"m reaching all the way back. But when I look at the video, I'm clearly not. I also am wondering if I'm doing a decent job with my snap of the disc and keeping it fairly tight to my chest. I must be doing something right to get it out to 350' with my teebird. I'm just not 100% what it is. I feel like i'm getting much more power and control on the disc this week. It's clearly not the reach back nor full rotation of the hips and shoulders causing this.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'll keep posting follow ups once every week if I can. Assuming I have improved at all. JR, thank you for the videos and all the feedback. It really does help out.

Video #1 with Teebird: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzRN3MAucv4]
Video #2 with Prodigy M3: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBpddfww1So]

Andrew

 

[sweet1ar]

Testing to see how to link the videos. The first attempt failed miserably. Trying another attempt now.

[http://www.youtube.com][/watch?v=uBpddfww1So]

 

[sweet1ar]

Last attempt to post video.

 

[JR]

In Youtube copy the URL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBpddfww1So
Then typing a message here click on the button called "youtube" right above the text box that you are typing in. It is the button farthest on the right. it should look like this:


Now click in between the letters ][ with the mouse and paste the URL above and it should look like this:


For the correct usage you can also reply to this post quoting it and watching how it looks like in the above line.

Three points about your throw. You do reach back about as much as you can with the right foot pointed only 8o degrees away from the target. That limits how far away from the target you can turn the shoulders away from the target. Planting the right toe to point up to 180 degrees away from the target allows you to get a full reach back.

Your right leg is not stiff enough muscle wise and you don't delay the onset of the heel pivot long enough so the hips won't twist right passively and you lack active twisting as well. It is easy to practice the active hip twisting just standing in stand still throwing stance letting the arms hang down loosely without discs. Note where the arms start to fly away from the body. That is when the arms starts to snap passively in a real throw too. You can use that position as a starting point in discovering where you need to accelerate the arm actively during the throw to get the best distance.

Your body center muscles are too loose to maintain an upright posture. More tension is needed or your hyzer angles and possibly left/right angles will stay variable. Spraying is no fun on a tight course.

M3 is a perfect fine disc in prototype anyway. IDK how FR works. Proto is pretty USDGC 2009 Star Rancho Roc like in flight. Good HSS some LSS so not a straight disc at 300'+ unless thrown with great spin or low enough to drop to the ground before fading.

 

[Varsi]

In Youtube copy the URL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBpddfww1So
Then typing a message here click on the button called "youtube" right above the text box that you are typing in. It is the button farthest on the right. it should look like this:


Now click in between the letters ][ with the mouse and paste the URL above and it should look like this:


For the correct usage you can also reply to this post quoting it and watching how it looks like in the above line.

You can also show the proper syntax with code-tags.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBpddfww1So[/youtube]

Note that the link should only have ?v=uBpddfww1So or so after the watch part. If there's "feature=" and such you'll need to remove them.

 

[sweet1ar]

I finally did it. Woohoo. Thanks Varsi and JR. The last piece by Varsi is when it really clicked. To think I work with computers on a daily basis and write VBA code. Pretty scary thought. I apologize to anyone who keeps seeing these random posts by me. I wanted to make sure I do it correctly going forward. Next time, maybe I should hit preview before I post. Thanks again JR and Varsi.

Thanks for the suggestions JR on the throwing. I will go out and try to practice what you suggested. I believe there was a drill in the consolidated write up someone had posted about shoulder and hip rotation. It also had comments from Udder, Blake, etc... Also, would it help if I used a real video camera instead of my iphone for these videos? This last video was shot at dusk, so that did not help. But it seems to be harder to see details at times when I slow it down.

Thanks again all for the help. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[JR]

The software that this site uses is limited in the video display capabilities so you can only see small videos anyway. Of course a better video cannot hurt but i could see many things just fine from those videos too. So i wouldn't worry about it right now anyway. You have fish to fry already so further polishing of form needs to wait anyway.

 

[Varsi]

The software that this site uses is limited in the video display capabilities so you can only see small videos anyway. Of course a better video cannot hurt but i could see many things just fine from those videos too. So i wouldn't worry about it right now anyway. You have fish to fry already so further polishing of form needs to wait anyway.

Forum software does not limit anything. It's just some lazy administrator who doesn't want to add parameters.

 

[Jeronimo]

In the last video (couple vids? I'm confused) you are not driving off your back leg. Your x-step isn't translating anywhere near the potential power it could into your hip rotation. You're going to need to really slow it down more and try to feel the legs driving the hips, the hips driving the torso, the torso rotating the shoulders, and the shoulders whipping the arm. Meanwhile all you really need to concern yourself with (at this point) regard to the arm is to pull it straight across the chest. Do NOT arc the body, a proper throw looks more like a "U" than it does a half circle. I can't really comment to this in your video because I just can't see it, but the most critical portion to the throw is the pinch of the fingers at the rip point. If you think you need work on this, try using some of blakes drills. I don't really know what his latest is but i've always liked using a bastardized version of his Yo-Yo drill. Basically, pretend your going to yo-yo the disc into the ground, but go ahead and actually let it rip out of the fingers into the earth. Concentrate on the feeling of the disc ripping out of your pinch point and resisting it.

 

[sweet1ar]

Thank you for all the feedback. I did not get a chance to video practicing in the field this weekend. Spent about 4 hours doing the pec drill with 11 wizards, which Dan Beato did on you tube. Then, I did it for another hour today. I'm not sure how Dan Beato did it for 2 weeks straight in stand still, but quite impressive. I did stand still till I started getting out the discs consistently. Consistently in a head wind of about 175-200'. With a tail wind closer to 225'. All were within 60' of each other for the most part. Then worked in one step, two steps, then an x step. I barely was able to work on the x-step. Took me a while to get a feel for the 1 step. Plus, I kept watching the video over and over again. I was not able to incorporate a reach back. I did it a few times, but felt very awkward. Will need more practice on this. Plus, I still need a bit more consistency. Also during the drills, I have been trying to focus on opening and closing the hips and trying to use more lower body. The piece everyone is most definitely consistent on in my critique. One question I do have is Beato did not talk as much about the reach back and follow through prior to when the disc reaches the pec and elbow at stopping point. Should I incorprate the reach back with the stand still, then 1 step, two step, etc? I know someone on here has done these drills a million times over and I'm curious on their input. Also, when did you start working on the reach back? I know everyone learns differently and has different learning curves, but I'm a bit curious. When will I know when to graduate from the pec drill to a reach back? Then from the reach back to the full motion including an x-step. Do you judge by the feel of the disc ripping out? Is it by distance? I hear distance quite often, but feel more often than not. Just feel is very hard to measure where distance is not. I read once you reach around 250-275' with a putter you are on the right path. I know I'm doing somethings right. I feel more power when throwing my putters and I actually did a reach back with an x-step today and it was a clean throw and close to 250'. I will try and video tape my sessions this weekend to show my progress and hope to receive great feedback on here.

Thanks again.

Andrew

 

[JR]

You should definitely practiced full reach back stand stills right now and try to stay loose. Actually as loose as possible until the right pec position and try to recreate the right pec drill from there. Once that works a one step reach back throw which still needs most of the focus to be in staying loose. and once it works one extra step at a time. Distance and resistance to flipping while fading less are the yard sticks for added snap and power input is secondary and without added spin can work against resisting flips.

 

[sweet1ar]

Thanks JR for the response. I went out today and included my reach back. I'm really starting to feel the power in my pull through after I past my chest. I believe i'm using pull through correctly here. I worked up to a two step reach back, even though I mostly did stand still and one step. I"m really getting a lot of distance and power out of my wizards. My farthest throws with the wizard with a two step and reach back and it went 280'. I With one step it was about 250-260'. When I don't get as much air under the disc (disc about 5-10') off the ground I'm getting a huge low skip once it does hit. It has a ton of spin and velocity on the disc. It's amazing what the pec drill does and how much it has all ready improved my driving distance with putters. My best drives with the putters came when really focusing on keeping the disc close to my chest just prior to the hit zone and then I could really put power behind the disc. Not once did the wizards flip over on me. A majority had a gradual small fade at the end and had a small skip. And if it fades left sooner than normal and didn't get quite as much distance, it would skip at least another 40-60 ft. I was throwing a bit more on a hyzer plane on these throws. I still need a bit more work on this, but my priority right now is the reach back, keeping the disc tight to my chest, and then really really hitting it hard in the power zone.

I will be going out to the practice field again tomorrow and hopefully video the drills I'm doing and be able to get feed back if I'm doing them correctly or things I need more improvement on. Thanks again everyone for the great feed back. Especially JR!!! I may never hit that top 1% Blake had worked with to hit their full disc potential speed or 4% who half hit. But, I do like a challenge and almost impossible feats. I'm not giving up!!! I'll read these articles till my eyes bleed and ice my arm every night if I have to to get back out in the field. Thanks again ya'all!!!

Andrew

 

[sweet1ar]

Here is the new video I have. I am doing Dan Beato's/Blake T Pec drill with a reach back. I have just reviewed the video and I still need lots of work. My first throw was god awful. So, ignore the first throw. Arm was at like hip level. Besides that throw, I noticed that I was not getting my disc to the right pec prior to releasing with the one step. It was more near the left pec. As for hips and lower body, I wouldn't mind more feedback there. JR you seem to have a keen eye for this. How's the left foot doing? I think it's more planted, but you have a better eye for this than I do. Incorporating the two step my form was getting even more shaky. I was getting further away from my right pec prior to the hit zone. I know this is where Beato says you lose the speed. With more of an x-step my disc was getting even further way from my right pec and even a bit lower. Very bad!!! I even think my left foot was picking up more than it should prior to snap of the disc. Well for day two of incorporating reach back, it's not horrible but needs lots and lots of work. I have attached the video below. This one is much longer. I am only throwing wizards. Even though my form was still kind of shitty, I was getting the disc out there and not flipping over. I really need to measure the soccer field because I don't think it's a full 300 ft (100 yards). If it was, i was getting the disc out to about 240-260' with a strong head wind. All feedback is greatly appreciated.

Video:

Thanks!!!

Andrew

 

[JR]

You can check the left leg height by pausing the video on Youtube and pressing arrow right button to move the video forward in small increments. You are raising the left leg up to butt top height. As if you were trying to follow through a straight up jump. That is 90 degrees too high in the leg pushing direction. You do get hip and shoulders moving some and the benefits might or might not be larger if you can stop the right leg for a little longer and harder and emphasizing the hip twist.