Would you like to see the PDGA limit number of disc carried in tournaments?

[roggenb3]

I also think the focus of the players meeting should be more on course ground rules and the procedures of the day rather than education about the rulebook.

Me too, but I still hear a speech about 2m rule, how to mark a disc that went OB, how to play casual water, etc at most tournaments.

 

[iacas]

I'd also be interested in how much tournament experience (both playing in and running events) the 25% have compared to the rest. Seems that a lot of these proposals to change rules from the status quo aren't well thought out how they would actually be implemented or enforced in real world practice, and seem to come from folks who haven't walked the walk as much as they've talked the talk on the internet.

What's to implement or enforce?

You put it in the rules. If someone's found to be in violation, they're penalized the appropriate number of throws/strokes.

That's it.

Just like every other rule in the book.

Here's another question for the advocates of this rule:

What do you do when a player shows up at the first tee, unaware of the rule, with too many discs in his bag? It's very possible that his cardmates may not even notice the violation, particularly if he's very close to the limit. If they do notice before the round begins, what's the recourse? Are you going to make him trim down his bag and leave all of the extras at the tee? Are you going to make him run back to his car to drop off the excess?

Yeah.

Why is this so difficult? It's the player's responsibility to know the rules. Golfers are expected to show up with 14 clubs or fewer. Disc golfers would be expected to show up with 12 or fewer discs.

If they don't, and are caught, they'll be penalized. I suggested one throw per hole per disc.

This is the biggest problem with enforcement IMO.

It's not a problem at all, unless enforcing every other rule is a "problem" too.

I fail to see how enforcing a limit would be any more difficult than enforcing the other rules

Seriously.

To be clear though, I am assuming the limit means you can't carry more than the limit with you, not that you can carry 30 and only use the limit.

Yeah.

also worth mentioning...

all the bags/carts would look stupid with 12 discs.

Those of you advocating for the status quo are starting to come up with some awfully goofy reasons things to support your opinion at this point. Just stop. You're not going to change my mind with these reasons. Be fine with that, as I'm fine with not changing your minds.

But the other enforcement issue, that I think would be more problematic, would be the player detouring to his car "to get a snack....or more water....or shed a jacket", and replacing a lost disc or swapping out discs.

Have the player leave his bag away from the car or be suspect.

Again, players could go swap out for illegal discs now (how often does that happen?), and golfers visit their cars, the pro shop, the halfway house, etc. without this being an issue.

In response to the bolded portion. I don't think you could achieve all of the shots you need with one release angle regardless of the number of discs you carry.

The purpose of talking about one release is to exaggerate to make the point easier to understand. More "throws" = more flights = more skill.

Guys, still… It's fine that we disagree.

We all still love the game.

 

[bradharris]

Why is this so difficult? It's the player's responsibility to know the rules. Golfers are expected to show up with 14 clubs or fewer. Disc golfers would be expected to show up with 12 or fewer discs.

If they don't, and are caught, they'll be penalized. I suggested one throw per hole per disc.


It's not a problem at all, unless enforcing every other rule is a "problem" too.

Yes, the players should know the rules, but in reality, there are plenty of tournament players who are ignorant of the rules. And there will also be innocent mistakes. Under your proposal, a player who forgets to take a backup out of his bag and is now over the limit by 1 will have to add 18 onto his score. If that was me, I'd walk off the course and head home.

It's not like the other rules in the rulebook. Without bag inspections (which won't happen) it will be very hard to spot close violators. With other rules, there's at least a distinct event that can be spotted and penalized.

 

[iacas]

This feels pretty off the actual topic, so I've wrapped it in a spoiler.

Spoiler

Yes, the players should know the rules, but in reality, there are plenty of tournament players who are ignorant of the rules. And there will also be innocent mistakes. Under your proposal, a player who forgets to take a backup out of his bag and is now over the limit by 1 will have to add 18 onto his score. If that was me, I'd walk off the course and head home.

You'd also learn a hard lesson.

You broke a rule, just like any other. Bummer for you, but rules are rules. If you're going to play a tournament, it's your responsibility to know the rules. The PDGA rules book is not THAT thick.

It's not like the other rules in the rulebook.

I think it is. Players are expected to be honest and know the rules.

Without bag inspections (which won't happen) it will be very hard to spot close violators.

How do you spot a disc that's 4g overweight now? How do you know if someone way over that way was in bounds or marked their disc or hit their mark on their run-up?

Either players are expected to follow the rules or they're not and the job of policing everyone falls to every other disc golfer in the field. I tend to think it's the former. Golfers don't routinely show up to tournaments with 16 clubs in their bag. If this was the rule, disc golfers would be expected to know and follow it.

I don't think it'd be an issue, particularly after the first year when people became aware of it.

Again, not that this is going to be the rule any time soon, if ever.

 

[bradharris]

This feels pretty off the actual topic, so I've wrapped it in a spoiler.

You'd also learn a hard lesson.

You broke a rule, just like any other. Bummer for you, but rules are rules. If you're going to play a tournament, it's your responsibility to know the rules. The PDGA rules book is not THAT thick.


I think it is. Players are expected to be honest and know the rules.


How do you spot a disc that's 4g overweight now? How do you know if someone way over that way was in bounds or marked their disc or hit their mark on their run-up?

Either players are expected to follow the rules or they're not and the job of policing everyone falls to every other disc golfer in the field. I tend to think it's the former. Golfers don't routinely show up to tournaments with 16 clubs in their bag. If this was the rule, disc golfers would be expected to know and follow it.

I don't think it'd be an issue, particularly after the first year when people became aware of it.

Again, not that this is going to be the rule any time soon, if ever.

It's actually very relevant to the discussion. Any time you want to propose a rule change, the penalty and enforcement are very relevant to the discussion.

You're proposing a rule which, if broken, provides a very tiny advantage, but is penalized with a virtual DQ.

 

[DavidSauls]

Have the player leave his bag away from the car or be suspect.

Again, players could go swap out for illegal discs now (how often does that happen?), and golfers visit their cars, the pro shop, the halfway house, etc. without this being an issue.

.

The comparison to illegal discs is a red herring.

First, because an illegal disc may be spotted if thrown; a replacement for a lost disc won't be.

Second, there's little strategic advantage now to going to throwing an illegal disc. It's not going to make a huge difference in your score. There's no motivation to go the car mid-round and sneak one into your bag.

If the bag limit is effective in affecting scores, then there's a real benefit to sneaking in a replacement for the driver you threw in the pond, or even a strategic change in the lineup. Hence, temptation to do so.

For years I played tournaments with a 10-disc bag, and I made mid-round changes often, to my benefit, or at least I hoped so. Except, of course, I didn't have to sneak the discs. If it were a rule I wouldn't......but I know of players who would.

So, yeah, we might tell players to leave their bag with the group, or a group member might accompany a player to his car. Do we really want to go there?

It's admittedly a minor issue, but something to bear in mind with a potential rule. It's not the reason I would object to a PDGA-wide rule, but it's something to consider and deal with. My objection is that it would be the imposition of an unnecessary rule, unpopular with the players, with enforcement issues, some annoying side effects, and no benefit to the game. It might require more skill, or at least a different skill, but wouldn't make the game better.

 

[Countchunkula]

The purpose of talking about one release is to exaggerate to make the point easier to understand. More "throws" = more flights = more skill.

Guys, still… It's fine that we disagree.

We all still love the game.

Huh? So the point you were making isn't the point you were trying to make. If you want to make your point easier to understand, state it clearly without exaggeration. Don't move the goalposts in response to a successful? rebuttal.

My point is/was that even with a huge lineup of discs covering many/most speeds and stabilities, you need to be able to throw effectively at different release angles and master different shot types to be successful at a high level.

The other point that I was making is that discs are not consistently manufactured. You don't pick up disc x and know it will fly the same as all other disc x's out there. I don't think anyone other than the full time touring pro has time to learn a large amount of discs (and keep refilling this well of knowledge as the discs beat in or are lost and replaced with unknowns). Many in this category (and 100% of the rest of us) could benefit more by learning a new skill, rather than a new disc.

So, while I totally agree that "more throws=more flights=more skill" argument, I don't think you can approximate the results of that greater skill with a larger lineup and limited skills.

 

[BrotherDave]

also worth mentioning...

all the bags/carts would look stupid with 12 discs.

Yeah but more room for beer I mean canned beverages of certainly non-alcoholic nature. :|

I am totally on board with this rule change now.

 

[scarpfish]

What's to implement or enforce?

You put it in the rules. If someone's found to be in violation, they're penalized the appropriate number of throws/strokes.

That's it.

Just like every other rule in the book.

You mean like every rule on proper marking, stance violations, foot faults, falling putts, holing out correctly, and a host of other things that are in the rule book that should be enforced but aren't because a great deal of real world tournament players don't know the rules.

If they aren't aware of a disc limit rule, are they going to check each other's bags beforehand? If a player is over the limit (so much for pre-two minute warning putting practice!), and there's no time to get back to their vehicle, and they have to face effective DQ if they carry the extras, well hell, they might as well walk home, and never play a tournament again, and curse the TD for the rest of their lives. If the TD, (who has enough whiny entitlement-oriented personalities to deal with), has to be the final arbiter to more than a few of these "were you carrying 12 discsdiscs or 13?" disputes, perhaps he decides at the end of the day "I don't need this s--t.", and doesn't TD anymore, all over a rule he didn't make and perhaps didn't even want.

This is the sort of thing one realizes when they have years of actual practice under their belts, and don't base their thoughts on how disc golf should be played on message board idealism, and a sociopathic need to control everything.

 

[tampabay]

Just stop. You're not going to change my mind with these reasons. Be fine with that, as I'm fine with not changing your minds.

Seriously. Why are we having a discussion then? Discussions are meant to be thought provoking and lead to discourse and with compelling argument a change in opinion.

You can't come in to a discussion with the mentality of "time to make these boys listen!".

I already said that I misjudged the number of people that would advocate this rule and I'm still trying to figure out where the people are that would advocate for this rule.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

You're proposing a rule which, if broken, provides a very tiny advantage, but is penalized with a virtual DQ.

Well, actually, he's proposing an unnecessary, and therefore undesirable, rule. There's no real, good reason for it and that is enough of a reason not to create it.

 

[bradharris]

Well, actually, he's proposing an unnecessary, and therefore undesirable, rule. There's no real, good reason for it and that is enough of a reason not to create it.

There are many reasons why this is a bad rule. The one I stated is just another to add to the list.

 

[tampabay]

Well, actually, he's proposing an unnecessary, and therefore undesirable, rule. There's no real, good reason for it and that is enough of a reason not to create it.

and also a rule that would only affect his opponents. It seems like the advocates for this rule are people who already carry < 15 discs

 

[DavidSauls]

and also a rule that would only affect his opponents. It seems like the advocates for this rule are people who already carry < 15 discs

True of one or two of them, but you never know about the rest. Some could be backpack-luggage-toting players who are tired of the arms race, and would happily drop to 12 if they could get everyone else to go along. Or be forced along.

 

[roggenb3]

and also a rule that would only affect his opponents. It seems like the advocates for this rule are people who already carry < 15 discs

I admit it. I do only carry 14 or so discs normally. But I'd support any limit as low as 10. Supporting doesn't mean I'm advocating that they should or need to adopt this rule, just that if it happened, I wouldn't mind. Or if there was a vote, I'd vote yes (like this poll).

I am fine with things as they are too. I think for a lot of ams, the amount of plastic they carry works against them anyway, which benefits me.

 

[shanker156]

So why do you feel the need to force them to be like you? If you feel that they are at a disadvantage, then let them carry as many discs as they want. What's next? Are we going to ban the use of stools because good players should be in good enough shape to be able to stand the entire round?

 

[armiller]

This thread has really taken off, for better or worse. I don't think limiting discs is particularly good (or bad, for that matter) for the game of disc golf.

If the original question was "Would you like to see a tournament (or a national tour, etc.) with a limited number of discs?" then my answer would be yes. Do I want to see the number limited in every disc golf tournament or do I think that will help disc golf somehow? No.

 

[roggenb3]

So why do you feel the need to force them to be like you? If you feel that they are at a disadvantage, then let them carry as many discs as they want.

Umm...I dont think thats what I said.

Supporting doesn't mean I'm advocating that they should or need to adopt this rule, just that if it happened, I wouldn't mind.

I am fine with things as they are too.

 

[DanJon]

So why do you feel the need to force them to be like you? If you feel that they are at a disadvantage, then let them carry as many discs as they want. What's next? Are we going to ban the use of stools because good players should be in good enough shape to be able to stand the entire round?

You demonstrate more skill by standing the entire round.

There's always going to be that guy who cheats and sits on a log or rock though.

 

[JedV]

I mean.. Is this not the most boring dg video you have ever seen?!



#iacasdgfantasy

Oooh! I like the part where he throws a Polecat!!