[Innova] Wraith love - post your stories

[ChrisinFL]

Ok, going to be super honest with you.

Pick up midrange discs and practice with them. When you can throw them straight, left and right. THEN you will be ready to throw a driver.

For your first driver, you want something like a sidewinder. Something very understable. If you don't have much arm speed, a light weight disc will help some.

But the key is to learn how to throw golf discs with slower midrange discs, then graduate to untestable drivers/fairway discs.

When you start turning them over, go something more stable. (sorry, I am not much on flight numbers yet, been playing too long)

I LOVE my wraiths, I throw them for fairway drivers, not for distance. I only throw Star and I try to get them as flat as possible.

I quit using my DX Leopards because I turn them over. I can hyzer them and flip up to flat, but not consistent with that. A little too much or not enough hyzer angle and they can go hard left or right - easier to just move on to the Diamonds (and others a bit faster) and way more consistent.

 

[Pizza God]

I am not a disc golf coach by any means. But when someone is just starting out I will teach them the correct methods for learning disc golf. I was trying to state that above.

When teaching new players, NEVER let them throw drivers. Only putters and midrange.

Reading some of what you posted above sounds like you may have some timing issues. I have always thrown with a power grip. Shoot, back int eh old days I use to have fingernail marks where I gripped the disc. These days I seem to only throw Star plastic. I like it because it does not get beat up bad.

I have never liked the slick clear champion plastic and don't even have any in my bag, in fact I don't think I have ever had any in my bag after Star plastic came out.

I only throw a fan grip for putting and maybe a close upshot. I have never been able to throw a pinch grip. But then I am very old school. Shoot, I would still be throwing 90's plastic if I could.
Distance.

For true distance you need spin. Any time a disc starts to fall off to the left (for a right handed throw) the disc is loosing spin. Too much spin on a disc will turn it over.

That is why the top pro's throw super stable discs. they have so much spin it flips the disc right up. If they tried to throw an under-stable disc, it will flip over to a roll.

While the S flight will maximize your distance, it tends to not be as consistent.

I throw a Shryke for distance, not accuracy. It's my distance driver.

I throw my Wraith for accuracy. I do not turn them over, I tend to throw them flat or with a hyzer unless I just need that extra few feet.

For me and my 57 year old broken down body, I throw the wraith on holes 250-325 pretty accurat. Anything over 325 I throw my Shryke unless it's a hole I need to be more accurate. I can sometimes get that Shryke to go 375, but mostly I throw it because I can get it to go farther than my Wraith.

Oh, I should mention that I pretty much throw only max weight discs, although I do throw some lighter in the upper 60's before.


I also carry a Star Valk. I roll this one, throw it for turnover shots or tight fairway straight shots. It replaced the Wave in my bag. I really liked the Wave but the edges of the disc get beat up too quick.

Anyways, I am rambling as usual. What I am trying to say before is to learn how to throw midrange discs before you move up to drivers for more distance. The grip is more personal. Pick one that feels comfortable for you and practice that one.

Timing is something you learn though repetition. You have to train your body to just know when to release your disc. I have 40+ years of throwing friebee's. I don't even think about it, I just look at where I want to land and throw to it. Most of the time with a hyzer shot because it tends to be more accurate. Don't get me wrong, everyone grip locks sometimes, specially when I am tired.

But then your also talking to someone who still bags classic rocs for 35+ years. It's still my go to upshot/short hole discs.

 

[ChrisinFL]

I got to get my son to video me again - see what things look like. The first time, I was shocked at how much different (aka worse) my throwing form was compared to what I thought I was doing! I don't grip lock often - but sometimes, yes. Timing - yes, almost for sure needs work.

 

[gwsmallwood]

Honest back:
My first fairway I could get a decent S flight with was Leopards. Then, I really got liking Lat 64 Retro Burst Diamonds. Fly very straight - like to go to flat if I accidentally release on a little hyzer angle, and now I get them about 190-200', maybe a little more once in a while. They have a gentle fade, and thrown on a bit of anhyzer I can get a slight S curve out of them. I bought a used Champion Sidewinder - thing almost always fades hard on me if I throw it flat. I suck with all mid ranges if I throw with a power grip - very erratic. Just today I discovered my Watt is the only putter (towards a mid range with that 5 glide) I can throw fairly well with a power grip. I threw Watt 4-5 times tonight, at about 150-180', and relatively straight. Normally less than 100' I throw a putter with a fan grip. Over 100', I was doing great with a Pro Leopard, but I grip locked it and the hard right sailed it into a lake a few days ago. It went very straight for me, up to about 200'. Now plan on trying out my Leopard3, the Watt, and maybe my Centurion for that spot in my bag. I already got so many discs, I hate to buy another PL, but it might be hard to resist on Innova F2 Friday. I will probably lose a little reliability from the Pro Leopard, which would tempt me for sure. What I think I am missing in my game - snap. Need better technique/form (or maybe timing), and learn how to get body power and convert it to disc speed. Despite my inability to use mid ranges, my short game is decent, and I would even call my spin putting a strength. Under 100' using a putter with a fan grip is definitely my comfort zone. I play and practice multiple times a week, and study a lot, but struggle to get distance. That is why I am enjoying throwing the light weight Terns and Wave. Not as consistent with them as I would like, but getting there, and 200-225', with the extremely rare Tern getting up to 245'. I will try the mid ranges again at the practice field, but experience says I will give up quickly, again. I have a Roc3, Makko3, Fuse, Pearl, and a few others. I have 2 Buzzzes, but they are my son's favorites, so I let him bag them. I can do better with them than any of my other mids, but still not great. It sounds like an excuse, but mids just don't feel right in my hands with a power grip. Can it be a small hands thing?!?! IDK - maybe I can't get a clean release with them?

I wouldn't say you can't throw drivers, but it should be experimental, playing around with them for field work to get a feel for them. I would recommend keeping them out of your bag for regular play, even fun rounds. The reason is that you aren't gaining anything by using them right now. You're not getting any additional distance out of them, and the small amount you might be getting comes at the expense of control. The stability you get from the drivers can also cover up the flaws in your form that you need to be working on right now.

As a baseline, here's a rough guideline for distances you should be shooting for before moving up to faster speeds:
Putters - up to 200 feet.
Mids - Up to 250 feet.
Fairway Drivers - Up to 300 feet.

I wouldn't bother picking up anything above a 9-speed until you can throw a 9-speed 300 feet. They aren't helping you with anything. It's actually hindering your ability to improve. I'm following my own advice here. I've been forehand dominant and I'm working on my backhand. I can only get my fairways out to about 265' consistently, 275 - 300 very occasionally. I don't throw anything over 9-speed backhand right now.

 

[Skervoy]

I am not a disc golf coach by any means. But when someone is just starting out I will teach them the correct methods for learning disc golf. I was trying to state that above.

When teaching new players, NEVER let them throw drivers. Only putters and midrange.

Reading some of what you posted above sounds like you may have some timing issues. I have always thrown with a power grip. Shoot, back int eh old days I use to have fingernail marks where I gripped the disc. These days I seem to only throw Star plastic. I like it because it does not get beat up bad.

I have never liked the slick clear champion plastic and don't even have any in my bag, in fact I don't think I have ever had any in my bag after Star plastic came out.

I only throw a fan grip for putting and maybe a close upshot. I have never been able to throw a pinch grip. But then I am very old school. Shoot, I would still be throwing 90's plastic if I could.
Distance.

For true distance you need spin. Any time a disc starts to fall off to the left (for a right handed throw) the disc is loosing spin. Too much spin on a disc will turn it over.

That is why the top pro's throw super stable discs. they have so much spin it flips the disc right up. If they tried to throw an under-stable disc, it will flip over to a roll.

While the S flight will maximize your distance, it tends to not be as consistent.

I throw a Shryke for distance, not accuracy. It's my distance driver.

I throw my Wraith for accuracy. I do not turn them over, I tend to throw them flat or with a hyzer unless I just need that extra few feet.

For me and my 57 year old broken down body, I throw the wraith on holes 250-325 pretty accurat. Anything over 325 I throw my Shryke unless it's a hole I need to be more accurate. I can sometimes get that Shryke to go 375, but mostly I throw it because I can get it to go farther than my Wraith.

Oh, I should mention that I pretty much throw only max weight discs, although I do throw some lighter in the upper 60's before.


I also carry a Star Valk. I roll this one, throw it for turnover shots or tight fairway straight shots. It replaced the Wave in my bag. I really liked the Wave but the edges of the disc get beat up too quick.

Anyways, I am rambling as usual. What I am trying to say before is to learn how to throw midrange discs before you move up to drivers for more distance. The grip is more personal. Pick one that feels comfortable for you and practice that one.

Timing is something you learn though repetition. You have to train your body to just know when to release your disc. I have 40+ years of throwing friebee's. I don't even think about it, I just look at where I want to land and throw to it. Most of the time with a hyzer shot because it tends to be more accurate. Don't get me wrong, everyone grip locks sometimes, specially when I am tired.

But then your also talking to someone who still bags classic rocs for 35+ years. It's still my go to upshot/short hole discs.

It is a common misconception that more spin = more turn and that is false. Spin increases the gyro stability...so that mean less turn and less fade which is why the more speed you eject the disc with the more spin you get. This also why pros have so much forward fade. I would expect that the spin rate increase from 300" to 700" is not as much as the added air resistance that pushes on the rim which then make it turn.

So for all intents and purposes turn is a factor of speed not spin since with a bh you pretty much always impart enough/alot of spin. Forehands there you get roughly half the spin (if you are good) compared to a backhand which means you always get more sideways movement.

 

[gwsmallwood]

It is a common misconception that more spin = more turn and that is false. Spin increases the gyro stability...so that mean less turn and less fade which is why the more speed you eject the disc with the more spin you get. This also why pros have so much forward fade. I would expect that the spin rate increase from 300" to 700" is not as much as the added air resistance that pushes on the rim which then make it turn.

So for all intents and purposes turn is a factor of speed not spin since with a bh you pretty much always impart enough/alot of spin. Forehands there you get roughly half the spin (if you are good) compared to a backhand which means you always get more sideways movement.

All of these arguments are highly dependent on grip and off-axis torque.

I agree that more spin = more stability, in terms of less lateral movement.

I disagree with more speed = more spin. You can eject the disc with tons of speed, but if your grip sucks, your wrist action/inaction and angles aren't right, or if you aren't smooth enough and you have tons of off-axis torque, then more speed will not create more spin.

I also disagree with the Forehand vs Backhand spin argument. Again, it's highly dependent on grip and form. My backhand sucks, so I get WAY more spin and speed out of my forehands.

 

[HyzerRoc]

My local dealer got a shipment of Star Wraiths with the new stamp and all of them got a really nice dome to them and at least mine in 171g is not crazy OS. Also none of them had bubbles or other defects.

 

[Sewer bill]

Still digging the GG Halo wraiths seems like 5 rounds and some field work breaks them in perfectly for the slow drifting hyzer flip. My most beat in one is now kind of not good for tunnel shots but for turnovers and wide open distance it's great.

 

[Pizza God]

Always looking for RED bottom stamped STAR Wraiths, 165-175g

The flatter, the better. I don't much care for the dome ones.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Always looking for RED bottom stamped STAR Wraiths, 165-175g

The flatter, the better. I don't much care for the dome ones.

What do the flat ones fly like? So far I have been looking to max out on dome

 

[mostlynorwegian]

New 150 gram Wraith coming in to replace the one I lost. Hoping for something flat.
My blue g-star Wraith is 163 grams, and it is flat. It's very straight. For Red star wraiths my 163 gram is a pop top, and that thing in my hands is almost comically overstable with most anything under a full yank, and a ton of airspace. It's more stable than my 170. Which isn't a pop top.

 

[gwsmallwood]

Still digging the GG Halo wraiths seems like 5 rounds and some field work breaks them in perfectly for the slow drifting hyzer flip. My most beat in one is now kind of not good for tunnel shots but for turnovers and wide open distance it's great.

Same All of my Pro, Star, and GStar Wraiths fly well for about 5-10 rounds and then get too flippy. Champ holds up longer. The Halos seem to hold up WAY longer. If you want a BEEFY Halo Wraith, try to find some of the Jen Allens. It's a utility disc.

 

[Pizza God]

What do the flat ones fly like? So far I have been looking to max out on dome

I feel like they fly better for me. The dome ones don't feel right in my hand. My Wraiths are my go to disc for fairways. I don't try to throw them for distance, only hyzer shots.

They DO NOT fly well into the wind, I will admit that. I usually loose them before they get too flippy.

In fact, I left one in MO this week, someone found it. I need to text him my mailing address.

 

[Skervoy]

All of these arguments are highly dependent on grip and off-axis torque.

I agree that more spin = more stability, in terms of less lateral movement.

I disagree with more speed = more spin. You can eject the disc with tons of speed, but if your grip sucks, your wrist action/inaction and angles aren't right, or if you aren't smooth enough and you have tons of off-axis torque, then more speed will not create more spin.

I also disagree with the Forehand vs Backhand spin argument. Again, it's highly dependent on grip and form. My backhand sucks, so I get WAY more spin and speed out of my forehands.

Well your case is your specific case. Normally theory is explained in general terms so there really is no arguments from a single anecdotal case that hold any legitimacy to debunk facts.


Speed = more spin that is just how it is. Sure it does not work in an exact linear fashion as you mentioned. It can be manipulated and inefficient mechanics but if you up 10mph in speed you will increase spin at some rate.

You torque the disc around in a circle at faster speed and that will increase rpm quite litterally.

 

[ChrisWoj]

My Wraith love story....? Might be more a story of abandonment...

In 2005 the Wraith was released, and I managed to snag the very first stock run one that our local disc salesman sold. A beautiful deep blue Pro Wraith with a purple stamp. I threw it for maybe nine months or so, into spring 2006, and then lost it deep off the left side of the the Hudson Mills Monster Hole (Hole 14). Deep. The hole is over 1000 feet, and I just skied a wannabe-distance-shot to a terrible hyzer that was wind carried into the ether. It was gone. Couldn't find it.

Fast forward to that summer. I'm working at Highbridge Hills way up in northern Wisconsin. 10 or so hours from Hudson Mills' Ann Arbor Area home. As I'm working on the property I came across a disc belonging to someone who had played the US Mid-Nationals tournament the prior year - Ann Arbor local Mike Frame (#20305 - "BROWN PARK!"). I'm pretty excited to have found a disc belonging to someone I know from back home. I give the number on the disc a ring - Mike picks up, and I let him know that I have his disc.

His response?

He laughs and lets me know that he happened to have found a disc of MINE recently as well at Hudson Mills. My Pro Wraith!

At the end of the summer, when I returned home to the area near Ann Arbor we connected and exchanged our discs. I wound up with that Pro Wraith in my bag, going from a distance driver I could pound on to a just completely dead trick-roller disc, until about 2011, another five years before I finally lost it for good.

I'm actually pretty sure its still where I lost it - at Vienna Park about a mile deep left into the boggiest part of the hole, trying to rip a 430 foot turnover that just stayed hyzer, then just got to flat, and seemed to just glide and glide into the woods and out of sight. And sadly, out of my life for the final time.

 

[Surge5]

Well, I've never seen this thread before.

My first Wraith was a DX one I found at my home course and had no name/number. Terrible disc for my new-to-disc-golf arm, but I managed to almost black ace 11 from 10's tee.

From there when I really started playing consistently I knew when I was ready for an 11-speed I'd try a Wraith. Bought my next one, a flat top orange in Champion plastic we'll call Orange Wraith #1 (OW1) (although that DX one was also orange... so I guess that's #0).

OW1 was a perfect flyer, tiny bit of turn, dependable fade... until it dependably faded right into the middle of a pond at Heritage. Don't get too attached to your distance drivers, kids.

So I went to the shop and bought another orange Champ wraith with a flat top we'll call OW2. It became a staple just as good as OW1... until it disappeared into 2 foot-high grass in Smithville.

From there I started to experiment with a disc I just happened to have on hand... the Discraft Surge (yeah, yeah, boo hiss). It worked fine, and so OW2 didn't get replaced for a while. During this time I acquired my first Halo Wraith, and a Star Wraith. The Halo has been a staple and is actually still in the bag today, while Star played in-and-out with a Grace, until it ended up in a pond at Pickard. At some point OW2 was returned to me, but then both it and the Surge were lost in quick succession, so I picked up another orange champ Wraith (OW3).

OW3 had some dome to it and wasn't filling the slot, so I ended up supplementing it with a Chandler Fry '22 Tour Series Surge. Over time, I found I just didn't throw the Surge, so it moved out of the bag as the Halo Wraith was starting to fill the slot.

OW3 got lost in Palmyra this June. I filled in another Star and a domey blue Champ, which was a nice slot a bit more stable than Star, but still not filling that "perfect" slot.

On June 17, I got a message from Dan (who has found two of my discs before). "Dropping off one of your discs at Duck's." I sent back "Lol thanks again, which one is it this time?" He sent a pic of OW1, which had sat in a pond for 2 years. I flipped out

So my bag now consists of a Star, domey pink Champ (lost that blue one at Bad Rock), OW1, and that original pink Halo. And I'm heading out after work today to test Pro plastic to compete with my Grace, plus few backups I have as the Halo is starting to lose it's stability.

All this to say, I love the Wraith. It isn't everyone's distance driver, but it's mine, and I may soon bag 5 or 6 of them

Also realized a few months back my wife and I got married on the Wraith's 15th anniversary (August 15).

 

[ArtemisClydFr0g]

Anyone feel the latest run of Pro Wraiths with the updated stamp? They look glossy and potentially gummy. I have a very gummy 165g pro wraith that is reliably flippy for my 330' max distance backhand. It's from a run a few years ago and I've been hoping they do a similar run for backups since it made my bag. Figured I'd ask here before ordering online.

 

[DRod]

Anyone feel the latest run of Pro Wraiths with the updated stamp? They look glossy and potentially gummy. I have a very gummy 165g pro wraith that is reliably flippy for my 330' max distance backhand. It's from a run a few years ago and I've been hoping they do a similar run for backups since it made my bag. Figured I'd ask here before ordering online.

Both the pro plastic F2s and the new stamp runs I've felt in the store have been glossy and gummy/pliable. Even somewhat slick to start but after a few rounds or a couple washes with some dawn the slickness fades and they are nice and tacky. Great feeling pro plastic runs RN. Beats in to US pretty quick but the one Ive had for a year is a nice hyzer flipper and turn over disc. Another was flippy out of the box.
You should be happy with buying a new one.

 

[the1discChallenge]

I picked up a gummy champion Wraith from Infinite during their big black Friday sale. The gummy plastic feels amazing and it's not too pliable. Moderate dome, not a lot of flashing. At 380-400ft ish, it would flip up to flat from a shallow hyzer for about 50-60% of the flight and then fade a lot harder than I would have expected. Pretty true to the -1/3 numbers, actually. I didn't get a ton of throws with it, but on the few good throws I had it flew really well. Anything less than that power, it was very overstable.

 

[ezmorningrebel]

Is Innova phasing out the classic 12x Climo stamp now? The only new stock I'm seeing is either bottom stamp or the new cartoon stamp?