wraith plastics

[ShankShot]

i throw the wraith as my max d driver, ~350 consistently, 400 on a good nut. the two wraiths that i have are both star, one is 171 and the other is 173. i think i could stretch them out at least another 20 feet, but i rarely get a good turn and fade back on them and i'm kind of wondering if it's because of the general higher stability of star plastic and their resistance to beatness.

the stability of star was great when i was throwing primarily forehand, but i have all but completely dropped my forehand game as my backhand and anhyser game has developed.

so, i'm considering buying a dx or a pro wraith. which one is the way to go, am i throwing a good weight for my distance, and what should i be looking for, domey or flat?

get it.

 

[black udder]

You could drop down to 166 or 168 and you can probably get enough speed on it to turn it over. You might also consider a champ since they're a tad less overstable. The pro is more overstable and dx smashes in too quickly.

 

[IllustratorVir]

Really? I always though the champs were a bit more stable than the pros. Anyway, I picked up a 166 and 169 pro wraith and I really like them. I can put them out to 400-420 consistently.

 

[DigIt]

I also think Champs are more over stable if not the MOST over stable of the Wraith plastics barring some freak runs of other plastics. I throw Pros now and love them. DX was too squirrely for my liking so I tried a lightish Pro (167 and 169) and I feel like it's the perfect plastic/weight combo of Wraith for me and I am right about where you're at with distance.

 

[peppermack]

buy the 7/10 pro wraith that booter has in the b/s/t section. it should be perfect!

 

[ShankShot]

if i buy in to a pro plastic, will it beat to flip to straight or money hyzer turning bomber and hold that line shaping ability for some time? i throw my dx teebirds for those shots right now. i really only throw my wraith on open long holes right now so they don't take much of a beating. my local course doesnt really have long wooded holes with the exception of maybe two.

let me try to wrap up whats been said so far:

lighter star or lighter pro, both viable options for what i'm looking for? 166-170?

if a buy a champ one, which some people seem say is the most overstable wraith, will i have a wraith with better wind fighting ability? these wraiths that i have right now turn forever in a L to R or headwind and never come back, even when i give them a good bit of hyzer.

 

[DigIt]

if a buy a champ one, which some people seem say is the most overstable wraith, will i have a wraith with better wind fighting ability?

Yep. My suggestion would be mid to high 60s Pro for regular D shots and a Champ for headwinds but really anything overstable (relative to you and your arm) will be good for head winds. I only suggest a Champ Wraith if you like the feel of the mold.

 

[black udder]

Unless the mold changed, the champ is not more overstable. Everybody was clamoring for the champs wraiths when they first came out because the star was more overstable. I throw the wraith as my distance driver and I've thrown them similar to you, 350' with a good huk around 400'. At those distances the champ wraith is less overstable. The star is quite a bit more ovestable. The worn champ will beat into something that requires a bit of height to take the flip, but it has a lot of glide, so with enough power to turn it over, it's a good distance driver.

I throw a 168g star wraith into a headwind 15mph headwinds. You can probably throw into heavier winds, but I think it would take some experience. if you got any anhyzer on it, it'd flip and glide a long way the wrong way.

For what it's worth, I've had the wraith as my distance driver for the last couple years...basically as soon as they came out with a production champ I picked one up because it was more understable. It's a 166g (or 162) and while I don't throw it much these days, it's still a great turnover driver. Hyzer flips up and over and then glides. Like you, I don't throw it except on open holes since it does that really well. I reserve my star 166 for fairly open holes or holes with woods over 300' and then I have the newish 166 for headwinds or windy open holes. I watched somebody throw that new one over 400' up hill and it didn't flip.... it was fun.

 

[Lithicon]

Just for referance, I throw old Beast usually 380-390. Then Wraiths, and now my Nukes in the 400' or more range.

I threw Wraiths before the Nukes came out and LOVE them so very much. But, I like the 175 Pro's. I do have a 172 though. But, the Pro's start off ever so slightly overstable, but quickly start going straighter and straighter. Then once they get to this point, they've been beat up just to the point to where the plastic is amazingly soft, and not slick anymore. Usually takes about 2 weeks of playing every other day a round or 2 to get it to this point. So, 12-15 rounds to get it just to the point of being almost perfect. Just after this the LSS starts to come out of them, and GLIDE FOR DAYS! Then they stay in this sweet spot for a good while, and only get better with age. I have a 175 Pro that is probably a year old now at the least, that's been used on wooded courses. It has just the right amount of high speed turn to go slightly anhyzer and hold it for a good while, then level off and start to fade back out. Threw a good 420' with it, but could easily see it going farther if I could get my throw better. The plastic feels so good in the hand, it's butter!

I kind of agree about the Champs being slightly too stable. I had a 171 champ that I could barely get it to flip up flat. I flattened mine a bit to get it to flip more, and it's now perfect, but lost a good bit of glide from doing this. But, it's nice and straight, and with it being champ, I don't see it beating in hardly at all, or loosing anything more than some of it's LSS.
-Edit- I also had a 165 12x KC Star Wraith that was very nice, it was nice and flat, and was pretty stable. It would just flip flat, and that's about it. Didn't seem to glide as much because it was so flat, compared the Pro's. But, it was still nice.

I'm not saying that the disc you're throwing isn't good, or bad for you. But, usually it's not so much the disc, as it is you're form once you get around the 400' range. Not to discourage you at all. But, 400' is generally the biggest, and hardest plateau to climb over.

 

[Jesse B 707]

go lightweight Pro, DX is garbage and champ while less stable than most stars is still not easy to flip at 350. A nice seasoned Pro is what you're after

 

[discspeed]

If your not hung up on Innova I'd try a Rogue/Surge SS. Imo, if your not consistently getting 400', the Wraith is not going to really fly right.

 

[JHern]

I had been throwing a domey 171g 12x KC Star Wraith for a while (first as a forehand disc, then backhand, like you). Its a truly wonderful disc, very stable at high speed and also lots of aerodynamic lift in flight. I wanted a less stable version I could turn more, just like you, and I picked up a 161 Star Wraith that was a sweet ass disc until I lost/left it at a local course. Instead of picking up another light Star Wraith to replace it, I decided to check out the Pro Wraiths, because I had heard so many good things, and I figured I could beat it into something less stable over time. So I got myself one of these 172g beauties...

https://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProduct.php?p=7&PPQT1=27&PPQT2=200

The stamp is one of the coolest stamps ever (mine is blue, with a metallic silver stamp). I'm still in the process of beating it in, but initially it flies exactly like my domey Star Wraith. Except for the great Pro plastic feel, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at all between them.

My hope is that this Pro plastic will beat up a bit more and start to turn. It would be fantastic to take a disc that starts out just like the domey Star Wraith but in a more malleable plastic, and...so far so good!

 

[ShankShot]

If your not hung up on Innova I'd try a Rogue/Surge SS. Imo, if your not consistently getting 400', the Wraith is not going to really fly right.

so basically you're saying take the speed down a notch?

 

[ShankShot]

looking in to it some, i'm considering:

same mold:
- lighter pro wraith

change mold:
- rogue
- apache (i have one and like the way it flies, but its in some terrible worlds plastic) anyone thrown an S apache? how are they vs the E?
- orc
- put my E savages back in the bag? i dont really feel like these fill the spot of a max d driver though. more of a tweener.
- starfire maybe as a straighter option?
- how about avengers?

which of those do you think would best fill the role of a big d driver with a bit of turn but comes back predictably? i'd like to get the best bang for my buck, because i'm a poor ass college student.

 

[Lithicon]

I'd say Pro Wraith it.

 

[JHern]

If your not hung up on Innova I'd try a Rogue/Surge SS. Imo, if your not consistently getting 400', the Wraith is not going to really fly right.

so basically you're saying take the speed down a notch?

I slightly disagree with that assessment, because I think it depends on what kind of thrower you are (e.g., hyzer-dominant vs. anhyzer dominant). I'm an anhyzer dominant thrower, and the Surge SS is fine in the low 300's (note: I measure distance over flat ground, no wind, and to the point where the disc first touches down...no skip included), but over that distance it begins to turn quite a lot...good for big left-right distance lines in the air (provided one gets the nose down), but with any OAT it'll flip a bit much on anything over ~350'-power. Not good in headwinds. I've not been using mine as much, for this reason.

For a flat-to-slightly anhyzer release, the Stablest Wraith is great anywhere over about 300'-power, with a wonderful high speed stability that'll flatten very nicely. Fan-freaking-tastic in winds. But you'll have to put more power than this to get it to work distance lines, and to fly as advertised. So what discspeed said is true in part, that a stable Wraith is not a utility driver covering every shot well until you are going well over 350'-400'ish power (again, depending on hyzer vs. anhyzer dominance). You just have to know what you're going to get out of it for a flight, and even if you're able to reach the high 300s' you should probably have another disc that you can turn over on distance lines (Surge SS isn't a bad choice for that, or beat up a Pro Destroyer if you want lots more glide).

That being said, a beat Pro Wraith is still something I've yet to experience, though working on it . I expect it to complement my Star Wraith at that point. I parked a 381' hole today with my Pro Wraith, and it still amazes me how damn straight it is in a head wind. I can get slightly longer distances with my Pro Destroyers, but they aren't nearly as reliable in wind, and they are also prone to spurious turning motions when I pour power into my throw (along with OAT). The Wraith doesn't budge...I can throw that bastard as hard as I possibly can, and I know it isn't going to flip. There isn't another disc in my bag I can say that about.

 

[ShankShot]

If your not hung up on Innova I'd try a Rogue/Surge SS. Imo, if your not consistently getting 400', the Wraith is not going to really fly right.

so basically you're saying take the speed down a notch?

I slightly disagree with that assessment, because I think it depends on what kind of thrower you are (e.g., hyzer-dominant vs. anhyzer dominant). I'm an anhyzer dominant thrower, and the Surge SS is fine in the low 300's (note: I measure distance over flat ground, no wind, and to the point where the disc first touches down...no skip included), but over that distance it begins to turn quite a lot...good for big left-right distance lines in the air (provided one gets the nose down), but with any OAT it'll flip a bit much on anything over ~350'-power. Not good in headwinds. I've not been using mine as much, for this reason.

For a flat-to-slightly anhyzer release, the Stablest Wraith is great anywhere over about 300'-power, with a wonderful high speed stability that'll flatten very nicely. Fan-freaking-tastic in winds. But you'll have to put more power than this to get it to work distance lines, and to fly as advertised. So what discspeed said is true in part, that a stable Wraith is not a utility driver covering every shot well until you are going well over 350'-400'ish power (again, depending on hyzer vs. anhyzer dominance). You just have to know what you're going to get out of it for a flight, and even if you're able to reach the high 300s' you should probably have another disc that you can turn over on distance lines (Surge SS isn't a bad choice for that, or beat up a Pro Destroyer if you want lots more glide).

That being said, a beat Pro Wraith is still something I've yet to experience, though working on it . I expect it to complement my Star Wraith at that point. I parked a 381' hole today with my Pro Wraith, and it still amazes me how damn straight it is in a head wind. I can get slightly longer distances with my Pro Destroyers, but they aren't nearly as reliable in wind, and they are also prone to spurious turning motions when I pour power into my throw (along with OAT). The Wraith doesn't budge...I can throw that bastard as hard as I possibly can, and I know it isn't going to flip. There isn't another disc in my bag I can say that about.

maybe it's just my discs, but this hasn't been my experience at all. if i bust on my wraith in a head wind i'm looking at 50 feet movement left to right on average and it never comes back unless i give it some air. i will say that it flies remarkably well in a right to left wind, but tends to work pretty poorly if the wind is coming from the other direction.

the specific wraith i'm talking about is a 171 blue star wraith, probably 8/10 maybe less, moderate dome. i have a new star wraith that's 173 that i haven't tested substantially in the wind, but it has a flatter top, and from what i understand, that means it will probably have less HSS and therefore be even rougher in the wind.

i'm thinking about stepping down to maybe an orc, but that's just speculation at this point.

 

[rehder]

Champ wraiths are hit or miss, especially if you dont know exactly what you are looking for. I have thrown several new champ wraiths, that where flippy out of the box, and fewer that where pretty stable.

But I havent found any other wraith that on a consistant basis is as stable as a pro wraith. The good thing about it is, that once it beats up, it becomes more understable, and that beating up shouldnt take too long. (Unless you only throw it on open holes with no rocks)

 

[JHern]

...That being said, a beat Pro Wraith is still something I've yet to experience, though working on it . I expect it to complement my Star Wraith at that point. I parked a 381' hole today with my Pro Wraith, and it still amazes me how damn straight it is in a head wind. I can get slightly longer distances with my Pro Destroyers, but they aren't nearly as reliable in wind, and they are also prone to spurious turning motions when I pour power into my throw (along with OAT). The Wraith doesn't budge...I can throw that bastard as hard as I possibly can, and I know it isn't going to flip. There isn't another disc in my bag I can say that about.

maybe it's just my discs, but this hasn't been my experience at all. if i bust on my wraith in a head wind i'm looking at 50 feet movement left to right on average and it never comes back unless i give it some air. i will say that it flies remarkably well in a right to left wind, but tends to work pretty poorly if the wind is coming from the other direction.

the specific wraith i'm talking about is a 171 blue star wraith, probably 8/10 maybe less, moderate dome. i have a new star wraith that's 173 that i haven't tested substantially in the wind, but it has a flatter top, and from what i understand, that means it will probably have less HSS and therefore be even rougher in the wind.

i'm thinking about stepping down to maybe an orc, but that's just speculation at this point.

My Star and Pro Wraiths are domey as hell. In fact, they are probably the domey-est discs I've ever owned, lending them an impressive profile (they just look fast and mean with the big dome). I've thrown Star Wraiths with less dome (somewhere intermediate between big dome and flat-top), and they were much easier to turn...probably would rank a HSS between the domey Wraith and the Valkyrie.

So, take-away message: the amount of dome in your Wraith is very important! Of course, this has been said many times here on DGR, but it doesn't hurt to re-state.

 

[VictorB]

while they are a bit harder to find, the champion glow wraiths fit the bill rather well as a more overstable wraith. I prefer to carry these as a compliment to my star wraiths for distance drives.