Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

[JHern]

...I know after Pro Worlds in Flagstaff the general feeling was that a World Championship should not be held at that altitude or above...

I know that there is a growing sentiment among some touring pros that Worlds should be held in perfectly controlled conditions for which every throw is simply performing a given sequence of shots under ideal footing and calm weather conditions, no trees, no rocks, no wind, great footing everywhere, no altitude, etc.. Heck, why do we need to even play on a course if we want to go this direction? For Worlds, we could instead simply set up a series of large movable circular hanging hoops in an indoor climate-controlled stadium at pre-defined altitude and select a champion based on who can go through the motions of performing a sequence of shots through various hoop arrangements...after all, what's the difference between that and the direction some people want to take disc golf championships? This growing sentiment is unique to disc golf, do you ever hear golfers at the AT&T Pebble Beach whining about the wind and rain and wishing they could just swing their clubs indoors, instead?

What makes disc golf better than that, and also makes it a great analogy for life, is that on a real course in the real outdoors: shit happens. Just as in life, everything can change in an instant, and you have to learn to adjust and overcome. Such changes might be temporary, lasting a few minutes, or may occur over hours, days, or even for the rest of your life.

Disc golf is an outdoor sport, in which you have to face the elements, you get to spend a little time in the open air, perhaps even a little closer to nature (or in the case of Tahoe, a lot closer). In an inherently outdoor sport, should a Champion be crowned who can only play well under conditions most comfortable to themselves, only? Or is it better to ensure that a true Champion must face and overcome a variety of challenges which spans the entire spectrum of skill sets in their sport, prove that they can get out of trouble when they find it, and keep doing it for the entire length of a tournament?

Also, is it fair to exclude a particular skill set from ever being tested again at Worlds?

...players who also experienced adjustment and health issues due to the altitude and Worlds includes players up to 80 years old...

Last time we went up to Tahoe my wife was 8 months pregnant, and we had similar concerns. But it turns out that Tahoe is not so high in altitude that it is a very serious concern (we're not talking about Mt Whitney), in fact there are many retirement communities and the elderly get along quite well in that area. You can see busloads of grey hair passing through Yosemite, Sequoia, Kings Canyon, Tahoe, Lassen, etc., all the time, travelling directly from western California and driving right up into the mountains from sea to sky.

Most players don't have the time to come a week in advance of Worlds and adjust to the conditions and learn how to throw their discs in the thin air.

It only takes a day or two, after which your body is completely acclimated and if you didn't already know, then you've had a chance to see how your bag flies in thin air.

 

[keltik1]

So if my dream of hosting a Pro tournament in Central Mexico comes true no pros would come because of the elevation (~6000 ft)?

 

[Cgkdisc]

We'll see what happens. All I posted was speculation on what will be discussed. The evolution of this sport is gradually defining what the boundaries are to define the Worlds versus the sport versus the recreational game. Is "air thinner than X" a defining boundary or not? It was tested at Flagstaff. The next step will be to see if it will formally be defined as a boundary for top level competition if Tahoe bids.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So if my dream of hosting a Pro tournament in Central Mexico comes true no pros would come because of the elevation (~6000 ft)?

If the money is there, they'll be there.

 

[keltik1]

So if my dream of hosting a Pro tournament in Central Mexico comes true no pros would come because of the elevation (~6000 ft)?

If the money is there, they'll be there.

Yeah that's what I thought, money talks and bullshit walks...

 

[Widdershins]

...Worlds should be a test of skill, not a gimmick tournament.

Tell that to the tens of thousands of disc golfers in the western US, who have learned how to adapt to altitude changes, and which is firmly ingrained into their skill set. It is a part of disc golf, whether flatlanders like you realize it, or not. The one to judge whether something is a skill is not the one who doesn't even possess it.

Air is what supports the flight of a disc, it is not a gimmick. Air is not a fixed thing, it is fluid and ever-changing (like wind, weather, and climate). Changing air density is like adding another dimension to your bag, it opens an entire new world and dimension of behaviors that you can learn to exploit to your advantange.

As far as disc adjustments, it's actually quite easy, get your beat plastic out, your turn-over and roller discs are money at altitude. After a few dozen throws you'll recalibrate and be ready to go.

Anyways Mark, you didn't come in 2011 when Worlds was at sea level, and perhaps you're not likely to attend, regardless of altitude.

JHern,

I was not trying to insult you or your course or your altitude, just relating my opinion.

Maybe your skills are well beyond mine but making the adjustment to high altitude was not easy for me. It felt like I was throwing random unknown discs and not knowing what they might do until I saw them in flight. And not a single disc in my bag was flippy enough for controlled anhyzers. It was like a weird dream where my shots refused to go where I wanted them to.

In Denver I was playing with some locals and a guy sees me spraying all over and says, "So I saw your videos. Did you used to be good before you got old or injured or whatever happened?" I laughed. It seemed a better answer than crying.

It is one thing to adapt to weather and topography and courses, all expected for a Worlds. It is another thing to relearn every disc in your bag and a new stack of ultra-flippy discs. For those who live in altitude and have developed those unique skills it would be a huge advantage. And an equal disadvantage for everyone else.

I plan for Worlds every year. Sometimes obligations interfere. In 2015 I turn 60 so I am looking forward to that.

 

[Vegan Ray]

Maybe your skills are well beyond mine…

Don't forget, he's also much smarter. :roll:

 

[BudB]

Several "flatlanders" come up and play just fine in the Sierra Tahoe series, winning their share of the overall divisions. (We're @ 6000ft btw)
One thought that came to mind is that they were all backhand-dominant players. I wonder if possibly different spin on a forehand shot would make the transition more noticeable.
And one overlooked benefit of playing in Tahoe - No Bugs!

 

[Widdershins]

...Worlds should be a test of skill, not a gimmick tournament.

Tell that to the tens of thousands of disc golfers in the western US, who have learned how to adapt to altitude changes, and which is firmly ingrained into their skill set. It is a part of disc golf, whether flatlanders like you realize it, or not. The one to judge whether something is a skill is not the one who doesn't even possess it.

Air is what supports the flight of a disc, it is not a gimmick. Air is not a fixed thing, it is fluid and ever-changing (like wind, weather, and climate). Changing air density is like adding another dimension to your bag, it opens an entire new world and dimension of behaviors that you can learn to exploit to your advantange.

As far as disc adjustments, it's actually quite easy, get your beat plastic out, your turn-over and roller discs are money at altitude. After a few dozen throws you'll recalibrate and be ready to go.

I have given this topic considerable thought and have changed my mind on it. Jhern is right. If everyone who lives at altitude can figure it out then I should be able to as well. Next time I visit thin air I am going to bring ultraflippy discs along. Beyond the shock of everything flying differently my problem was the lack of discs flippy enough for the conditions. Are any paper plates PDGA legal?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Lots of actual Frisbees are PDGA legal. Maybe try an UltraStar on those big downhill shots.

 

[isobar1]

Wouldn't it work both ways though Mark? If the people who play their whole lives in high elevation have to go to a low elevation to play, they would have to relearn their entire bag too. I suppose it's only fair that they cycle the location so everyone gets screwed equally.

 

[JHern]

...I have given this topic considerable thought and have changed my mind on it. Jhern is right. If everyone who lives at altitude can figure it out then I should be able to as well. Next time I visit thin air I am going to bring ultraflippy discs along. Beyond the shock of everything flying differently my problem was the lack of discs flippy enough for the conditions. Are any paper plates PDGA legal?

Right on Mark!

...I suppose it's only fair that they cycle the location so everyone gets screwed equally.

I prefer to think of it as having fun equally. Tahoe is such an incredible disc golf paradise, would be nice for the world to be able to enjoy it! It will also be incredible to see how far today's kids will be able to bomb up in the thinner air.

 

[DigIt]

Wouldn't it work both ways though Mark? If the people who play their whole lives in high elevation have to go to a low elevation to play, they would have to relearn their entire bag too. I suppose it's only fair that they cycle the location so everyone gets screwed equally.

Yes. And when I play a tournament out of state I have to do that very thing. I just thought that was part of the deal. Didn't know we could whine about it. :lol:

See you guys at the GBO! I'll be the one turning everything over and going OB long!

 

[Cgkdisc]

I still think a Pro Worlds won't happen above 5000 feet any more for the same reason they won't require Super Class discs for a USDGC. If the events everyone has been playing (NTs & As) and the discs you've been using all year are not comparable to the Worlds site, it's not a fair competition representative of what players played to get there. It's a macro example of playing the prelim rounds of Worlds at sea level then playing the semis and finals at 7000 feet. The rounds that got you to the semis don't bear any resemblance to what you need to do for the semis and finals.

 

[JHern]

...The rounds that got you to the semis don't bear any resemblance to what you need to do for the semis and finals.

Couldn't disagree more...just take the discs they used in low altitude and by the time they're beat up they're perfect for higher altitude, it's like re-setting the button and they fly like new again.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's only Pro Worlds I have a concern about, not any other event including Am Worlds. It will be interesting to see how the Board at the time a high altitude Pro Worlds is considered will see it since most I suspect will not have played Flagstaff.

 

[JHern]

It's only Pro Worlds I have a concern about, not any other event including Am Worlds. It will be interesting to see how the Board at the time a high altitude Pro Worlds is considered will see it since most I suspect will not have played Flagstaff.

The way I see it is that people will know up front what Worlds is going to be like, so they'll have time to prepare for it, at least mentally. It would be great to see how today's field of top pros adjusts and who will prevail. Youth is good for the physical exertion of hiking around some of the more extreme courses (Zephyr Cove is awesome!). On the other hand, making the adjustments to your throws and your bag favors age and experience. The elder age divisions can play Bijou, which is flat (27 holes), and the altitude favors the older slower discs that legends players like to throw. You see, when people start to think about it as if it is going to happen, they will become intrigued, and curious, and eventually eager and excited. And as you suggest probably a lot of the people who didn't experience Flagstaff will be especially keen to try a run at Tahoe. And anyways, Tahoe disc golf blows Flagstaff away, we shouldn't even be mentioning the two in the same paragraph, there is no comparison (apologies to Flagstaffians, but it's the truth). The courses at Tahoe are simply epic, and the ability for Tahoe to absorb and accommodate and entertain a large event is well-established (hosted Winter Olympics already, and they're bidding for Winter Olympics again).

Tahoe Pro Worlds could be the greatest event in the history of disc golf.

 

[JHern]

Going back to the original thread, I've been thinking about adding a feature to my disc flight simulators, that would show how one throw at a given altitude would fly at another altitude. Air density enters into the drag, lift, and torque, but it is straightforward to analyze since it is just a proportional change in these forces. I'll fiddle with it soon if I get a moment, it should be interesting to see what the physics says.

 

[cubeofsoup]

The rounds that got you to the semis don't bear any resemblance to what you need to do for the semis and finals.

You run into the same issue if you had bad weather in prelims and pristine conditions for the finals. You don't invalidate a Worlds if it rains at some point. I understand the change in conditions is very drastic, but, shouldn't our World Champion show that he/she can be the best anywhere in the World?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's not the same thing. Everyone has occasionally played in bad weather and everyone at Worlds would be on an equal basis for scrambling in those conditions. Most players have never played at a higher altitude where their discs act differently nor can they simulate that where they live to practice for the event.