Stop asking if you are outside the circle!

[DumfriesLizzie]

As you can tell, I have been thinking about this. On further thought, I think if the 1-meter proposed rule were to come into effect, that one should be allowed to freely follow through over that new, second lie. Although we call them putts, steppers and jumpers are really something in between a throw and a putt. I've seen folks throw a backhand into the basket. They probably followed through, though I cannot swear by that. So maybe make the second position the new, relocated lie and (thereafter) treat the subsequent step/jump putt as any other throw. The would-be stepper/jumper can walk back 1-meter from the previously-thrown disc (on the line of play from the basket) to establish this new lie. Put his/her mini down there. Pick up the previously-thrown disc (no longer in play). Jamming folks up behind the previous lie is overkill IMHO. Especially for those of us who happen to be long-legged and can cover a meter without much effort... I would hope that adding 1 meter back of where the previously-thrown disc landed is enough to mitigate any perceived unfair advantage. Then one can smoothly follow through (via the generated momentum of the jump or step), just as one does on drives and approaches.

 

[biscoe]

I don't think getting rid of the circle is the answer. The PDGA has technical standards for discs and baskets. Maybe they should also for measuring devices. That's a vote for improving the no-magic, affordable rangefinder. Is there enough incentive for manufacturers to improve their current devices? Create new ones? Time will tell.

Please no. Darn things should not be legal to begin with.

 

[Sewer bill]

Please no. Darn things should not be legal to begin with.

I don't use or own one but why do you think they should be illegal?

 

[biscoe]

I don't use or own one but why do you think they should be illegal?

Judging distance is an improvable skill (mostly this). Their usage bogs the game down. Not everyone has one.

 

[Sewer bill]

Judging distance is an improvable skill (mostly this). Their usage bogs the game down. Not everyone has one.

I think it hinders most people who use them. Almost as if they don't actually learn to throw specific reference distances. Feel like everytime I see someone bust out a range finder they come up way short. I do think it is a skill to judge distance. Definitely does add time though. Usually becomes a what disc do I throw situation too.

 

[Dcinmd]

I think it hinders most people who use them. Almost as if they don't actually learn to throw specific reference distances. Feel like everytime I see someone bust out a range finder they come up way short. I do think it is a skill to judge distance. Definitely does add time though. Usually becomes a what disc do I throw situation too.

Wish I had a dollar for every time in the past two week a card mate walk in front of two other lies to go shoot the distance of their lie. I could sign up for my next tournament.

 

[Steve West]

Wish I had a dollar for every time in the past two week a card mate walk in front of two other lies to go shoot the distance of their lie. I could sign up for my next tournament.

It's your responsibility to stop them by telling them that doing that is against the rules and, if needed, giving them courtesy violations. The first one is just a warning, and that usually ends it.

"812 Courtesy A. A player must not: [...] 3. Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as: [...] e. Advancing beyond the away player[.]"

(Maybe start giving your card mates a dollar every time you don't make the call?)

 

[itlnstln]

It's your responsibility to stop them by telling them that doing that is against the rules and, if needed, giving them courtesy violations. The first one is just a warning, and that usually ends it.

"812 Courtesy A. A player must not: [...] 3. Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as: [...] e. Advancing beyond the away player[.]"

(Maybe start giving your card mates a dollar every time you don't make the call?)

Agreed. I don't mind range finders, but I do mind people being assholes

Judging distance is an improvable skill (mostly this). Their usage bogs the game down. Not everyone has one.

There are rules for pace of play. I don't use my range finder very often, but it's helpful on open courses where you don't have trees and stuff to help with perspective

 

[Dcinmd]

It's your responsibility to stop them by telling them that doing that is against the rules and, if needed, giving them courtesy violations. The first one is just a warning, and that usually ends it.

"812 Courtesy A. A player must not: [...] 3. Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as: [...] e. Advancing beyond the away player[.]"

(Maybe start giving your card mates a dollar every time you don't make the call?)

Yeah right. Courtesy violation on someone walking up to their disc.

 

[ejvogie]

Yeah right. Courtesy violation on someone walking up to their disc.

Walking between my lie and the basket (as I'm addressing my shot) so you can rangefind your lie? At the very least it's a dick move, and as Steve quoted, probably a courtesy violation.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Wish I had a dollar for every time in the past two week a card mate walk in front of two other lies to go shoot the distance of their lie. I could sign up for my next tournament.

That's just rude.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

There is order of play (rule 812 A2). If it isn't the person's turn to throw, they shouldn't be doing much of anything. Not when someone else is about to throw. Indeed, they should be behind the thrower, still, and quiet (rule 812 A3 d&e). Steve West cited these rules earlier.

However, it could be the rude rangefinder cardmate is trying to reserve all of his 30 seconds for the throw. That is, not have to squeeze measuring into the same 30 seconds with actual throwing.

I believe he can measure (part of determining the lie) *before* his 30 seconds start. You may disagree. However, please see rule 802.03 section A.2. I'm understanding "determining the lie" as something broader than just finding the disc. Find the disc and ascertain its status. So you know which way to leap (pun intended).

Notice all of 802.03 must be true for the clock to start.

Personally, I think that's reasonable. And (no) it's not right to measure while it's somebody else's turn.

All golf is a game of concentration. Pace of play rules are enforced so that concentration is not open-ended. That too is reasonable. But it's a balancing act between competing notions.

If (under current rules) one needs to (himself or herself) determine if s/he is in C1 before jumping or stepping (or how far ahead a fairway pond is to determine if they need to just lay up), that obviously takes time to ascertain. Just like it takes time to look for discs lost in the rough.

There's a time limit for the latter that is unto itself. So maybe there should be similar for measuring, with whatever device the person has. As part of the "determining the lie " effort.

 

[biscoe]

There is order of play (rule 812 A2). If it isn't the person's turn to throw, they shouldn't be doing much of anything. Not when someone else is about to throw. Indeed, they should be behind the thrower, still, and quiet (rule 812 A3 d&e). Steve West cited these rules earlier.

However, it could be the rude rangefinder cardmate is trying to reserve all of his 30 seconds for the throw. That is, not have to squeeze measuring into the same 30 seconds with actual throwing.

I believe he can measure (part of determining the lie) *before* his 30 seconds start. You may disagree. However, please see rule 802.03 section A.2. I'm understanding "determining the lie" as something broader than just finding the disc. Find the disc and ascertain its status. So you know which way to leap (pun intended).

Notice all of 802.03 must be true for the clock to start.

Personally, I think that's reasonable. And (no) it's not right to measure while it's somebody else's turn.

All golf is a game of concentration. Pace of play rules are enforced so that concentration is not open-ended. That too is reasonable. But it's a balancing act between competing notions.

If (under current rules) one needs to (himself or herself) determine if s/he is in C1 before jumping or stepping (or how far ahead a fairway pond is to determine if they need to just lay up), that obviously takes time to ascertain. Just like it takes time to look for discs lost in the rough.

There's a time limit for the latter that is unto itself. So maybe there should be similar for measuring, with whatever device the person has. As part of the "determining the lie " effort.

How can you measure the distance from a lie that is undetermined? IMO rangefinding when it is your turn needs to fall within the 30 seconds. Rangefinding when it is not your turn is not a problem as long as you aren't walking ahead of someone else/being a distraction to do so.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

How can you measure the distance from a lie that is undetermined? IMO rangefinding when it is your turn needs to fall within the 30 seconds. Rangefinding when it is not your turn is not a problem as long as you aren't walking ahead of someone else/being a distraction to do sTo

Answering the question: You know where both the disc and the basket are (or whatever target you're using in the fairway). So you have points of reference to measure between to learn the distance. As I said, I think determining the lie is more than just locating the disc. It's gathering information so that you can decide what to do next.

Should one be all day doing this? No. Should one be doing this when their lie is ahead of someone else's? I think "order of play" rules say no. That's my understanding.

I appreciate we don't want to be out in hot or wet or cold weather all day long. That we have other things to get to in the day. While timing is definitely important, so too are other aspects of the game. I say seek balance. And try to keep things fun...

Two things come to mind: (1) I was playing in a tournament a few years ago, and the field was small enough (it was a women's-only tournament) that there were three players to a card. On the 18th hole of rd 2, one of the ladies threw her drive somewhat wide into not-terrible-but-not-great rough and had a ton of trees between her and the green. She took way more than 30 seconds to figure out how to throw that forehand, but it was an outstanding thing to behold. Now had I interrupted her and told her that she had to be past her 30 seconds, I would have upset/destroyed that beautiful experience. She got through all of those trees and parked that disc under the basket. It was beyond awesome! (2) Turning to regular golf. I have watched two professional tournaments where the eventual winner was already in the last group (so not holding anybody up) and was also some shots in the lead. Marshal calls the person for time, that gets in their head, they start playing poorly. Happily, in both cases, the eventual winner did not totally collapse after the warning, regained their composure, and won the championship. But suppose they had not....

I'm just saying that getting things done as quickly as possible shouldn't be the only thing that matters.

Yet, I also appreciate there's an element of fairness: why should one group or one person get more time than others?

It's truly a balancing act.

 

[ru4por]

Answering the question: You know where both the disc and the basket are (or whatever target you're using in the fairway). So you have points of reference to measure between to learn the distance. As I said, I think determining the lie is more than just locating the disc. It's gathering information so that you can decide what to do next.

Should one be all day doing this? No. Should one be doing this when their lie is ahead of someone else's? I think "order of play" rules say no. That's my understanding.

I appreciate we don't want to be out in hot or wet or cold weather all day long. That we have other things to get to in the day. While timing is definitely important, so too are other aspects of the game. I say seek balance. And try to keep things fun...

Two things come to mind: (1) I was playing in a tournament a few years ago, and the field was small enough (it was a women's-only tournament) that there were three players to a card. On the 18th hole of rd 2, one of the ladies threw her drive somewhat wide into not-terrible-but-not-great rough and had a ton of trees between her and the green. She took way more than 30 seconds to figure out how to throw that forehand, but it was an outstanding thing to behold. Now had I interrupted her and told her that she had to be past her 30 seconds, I would have upset/destroyed that beautiful experience. She got through all of those trees and parked that disc under the basket. It was beyond awesome! (2) Turning to regular golf. I have watched two professional tournaments where the eventual winner was already in the last group (so not holding anybody up) and was also some shots in the lead. Marshal calls the person for time, that gets in their head, they start playing poorly. Happily, in both cases, the eventual winner did not totally collapse after the warning, regained their composure, and won the championship. But suppose they had not....

I'm just saying that getting things done as quickly as possible shouldn't be the only thing that matters.

Yet, I also appreciate there's an element of fairness: why should one group or one person get more time than others?

It's truly a balancing act.

So........Niko is standing over his disc for 50 seconds.....determining what to do next?

Rule enforcement does not have anything to do with experience enhancement. Rules should be followed and enforced.

I think your post highlights the primary disc golf rules issue. Calls made [or not] based on emotions, inconvenience or trepidation.

 

[biscoe]

For what it is worth I don't think the current rule is a good one. Obviously there are circumstances that require more than 30 seconds. On the other hand the vast majority of shots should not require more than maybe half that. If a group is not holding things up for other groups does it even matter? It is really easy for a group in which the majority of players are taking the majority of 30 seconds on all their shots to hold up other groups regardless of not exceeding 30 seconds on any one shot. Personally as a player I would never even consider calling a time violation on someone in a difficult spot and would only call it on someone habitually abusing the rule to begin with.

This of course highlights the fact that rules enforcement is dependent on the players and the vast majority of them want nothing to do with it. This culture is what needs to change more than anything else and I am skeptical that it ever will.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

So........Niko is standing over his disc for 50 seconds.....determining what to do next?

Rule enforcement does not have anything to do with experience enhancement. Rules should be followed and enforced.

I think your post highlights the primary disc golf rules issue. Calls made [or not] based on emotions, inconvenience or trepidation.

As I indicated earlier, put a time limit on "determining the lie" just like we have one on "finding the disc" (or deciding to abandon it because you cannot find it and have to do something else anyway).

If we are so rigid about rules that we kill the joy in the sport, what have we accomplished? Balance, I say.

Strict rules enforcer that Niko is, he'd be a fine one to stand over his disc for 50 seconds!

 

[biscoe]

We have been proving for many years at this point that a hard and fast time limit does not work. (doesn't work for lost disc either- common practice is to look for several minutes prior to starting the clock) More time limits on more things does not seem to be the answer to me.

 

[ru4por]

As I indicated earlier, put a time limit on "determining the lie" just like we have one on "finding the disc" (or deciding to abandon it because you cannot find it and have to do something else anyway).

If we are so rigid about rules that we kill the joy in the sport, what have we accomplished? Balance, I say.

Strict rules enforcer that Niko is, he'd be a fine one to stand over his disc for 50 seconds!

There is a vast opportunity to play disc golf for pure joy, outside the established rules. Casual play is a terrific outlet and rules can be selectively applied. When signing up for a sanctioned event, you agree to adhere and enforce PDGA rules. Not the spirit of the rules, not an emotional interpretation of the rules. The idea is once you find your disc and can get to it, you get a half minute to see your shot and execute.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

We have been proving for many years at this point that a hard and fast time limit does not work. (doesn't work for lost disc either- common practice is to look for several minutes prior to starting the clock) More time limits on more things does not seem to be the answer to me.

Yes, John. You are correct that we regularly break the rules. I am just trying to provide some formal recourse for the folks who do want to be rule enforcers to the letter. The trouble with timing anything is that if you are not expecting the worse out of your cardmates, you are not starting your timer when the rules say you should. We certainly need objective referees, but we shall not be getting any anytime soon!

BTW I have now decided that I will no longer *ask* if I am in or out of the circle nor will I measure the distance. I am going to say to the group, "I think I am outside of C1. If you think I am inside of C1, please speak now or forever hold your peace!" There have been times when I probably was outside the circle, but one (I just need one) cardmate thought it was iffy. I do the regular putt in that instance. I'm okay with that.

I don't have to measure the distance to prove them wrong unless (1) the entire card insists on that, (2) I have something to measure with, *and* (3) they are going to give me reasonable time to measure the distance. Not likely to happen!

I appreciate that some of you are distinctly more competitive than I am, not than I am not (surprising as that may sound). As the scores tighten up, you want to enforce rules without any wiggle. That is always your prerogative.