2016 Pro Worlds

[lyleoross]

For me, the easiest way to get the OB Mando issue is that the Mando is the way the designer intended the hole to be played. I can then envision a route that is much easier, crosses conveniently in at some point, then lands OB. Going to last IB leaves an easy putt. I've now defeated the designers purpose. Unlikely, but possible.

 

[netposer]

Note to TDs: We recommend that when you have hole designs with mandos where other penalties could also apply, as with this example, specify that players go to the Drop Zone regardless whether they Missed the Mando, went OB, Lost their disc or any combination of penalties. This will make it much easier for players to make these tricky calls and determine where to play their next throw regardless what penalty applies.
http://www.pdga.com/rules-school-mandatory-update-80402

 

[ToddL]

I was absolutely blown away by Jason Allind's answer. Shocked, I tell you, shocked.

Given the Mando discussion on the PDGA rules school, I interpret the rules as follows:

Flight A: Last IB at point 1, landed OB, never passed the mando line. Mark lie at Point 1.

Flight B: Last IB at point 2, landed OB, passed mando on wrong side. OB happened first. Mark lie at point 2.

Flight C: IB at point 3, re-entered IB, landed IB, passed mando on wrong side. Since it landed IB, there's no debate about which happened first. It's just a missed mando. Mark lie at DZ.

Flight D: Last IB at point 4, landed OB, passed mando on wrong side (same as flight B). OB happened first. Mark lie at point 4.

Flight E: Missed mando, last IB at point 5, landed OB. Missed mando happened first. Mark lie at DZ.

Flight F: Missed mando, never left IB at all. Mark lie at DZ.


Devan's shot was Flight B/D. Rules School clearly states that you take which happened first and mark it at the last spot IB. The caddy book isn't explicit enough that all OB/missed mando shots should go to the drop zone to make that a viable solution.

(well, maybe you could argue it either way from the caddy book, but Jason Allind was absolutely wrong in his statement at 3:07:20 in the live broadcast.)

 

[august dupree]

Well that mudifies things a bit....

According to this for throw A, they are saying it goes OB first even though it passes the Mando BEFORE coming to rest. Ain't that a peach?

"For Throw A, the disc crossed the OB line first and the lie is marked at the last point inbounds by the lower red dot or the player may retee. For Throw C, the disc missed the mando first and the player would go to the Drop Zone. For Throw B, if the group decides the disc went OB first, the player either gets the lie by the upper red dot where the mando line enters OB or they can retee. If the group can't decide because it was too close to tell, the player gets to choose. In this example, the player would likely choose to go to the Drop Zone."

I'm not sure how to say this but I'm pretty sure us heady DGCR folks are right about this interpretation for Throw A and that Throw A actually misses the Mando BEFORE the disc comes to rest at which point the disc becomes considered OB. Therfore, throw A should actually be considered to have missed the mando, NOT go back to where it first went OB. There can be no other conclusion other than that the PDGA Rules School update is wrong about throw A.

 

[Steve West]

I'm not sure how to say this but I'm pretty sure us heady DGCR folks are right about this interpretation for Throw A and that Throw A actually misses the Mando BEFORE the disc comes to rest at which point the disc becomes considered OB. Therfore, throw A should actually be considered to have missed the mando, NOT go back to where it first went OB. There can be no other conclusion other than that the PDGA Rules School update is wrong about throw A.

That's why Rules School is not official.

 

[august dupree]

I was absolutely blown away by Jason Allind's answer. Shocked, I tell you, shocked.

Given the Mando discussion on the PDGA rules school, I interpret the rules as follows:

Flight A: Last IB at point 1, landed OB, never passed the mando line. Mark lie at Point 1.

Flight B: Last IB at point 2, landed OB, passed mando on wrong side. OB happened first. Mark lie at point 2.

Flight C: IB at point 3, re-entered IB, landed IB, passed mando on wrong side. Since it landed IB, there's no debate about which happened first. It's just a missed mando. Mark lie at DZ.

Flight D: Last IB at point 4, landed OB, passed mando on wrong side (same as flight B). OB happened first. Mark lie at point 4.

Flight E: Missed mando, last IB at point 5, landed OB. Missed mando happened first. Mark lie at DZ.

Flight F: Missed mando, never left IB at all. Mark lie at DZ.


Devan's shot was Flight B/D. Rules School clearly states that you take which happened first and mark it at the last spot IB. The caddy book isn't explicit enough that all OB/missed mando shots should go to the drop zone to make that a viable solution.

(well, maybe you could argue it either way from the caddy book, but Jason Allind was absolutely wrong in his statement at 3:07:20 in the live broadcast.)

I would argue that flights B/D actualy missed the mando first because the discs position as OB is determined by when the disc comes to rest. What actually happens first is that it passes the wrong side of the Mando.

Clearly this issue is not all that cut and dried. It may be for some, but it's not for me.

 

[ToddL]

I would argue that flights B/D actualy missed the mando first because the discs position as OB is determined by when the disc comes to rest. What actually happens first is that it passes the wrong side of the Mando.

Clearly this issue is not all that cut and dried. It may be for some, but it's not for me.

You use the spot where the disc crossed the OB line as the spot for regular OB to determine "where it went OB" or "last spot IB". Why would you not use the same logic here?

 

[notroman]

I would argue that flights B/D actualy missed the mando first because the discs position as OB is determined by when the disc comes to rest. What actually happens first is that it passes the wrong side of the Mando.

Clearly this issue is not all that cut and dried. It may be for some, but it's not for me.

You would be correct. A disc is not OB simply because it's flying OB. It is OB when it comes to rest OB.

Devan's shot did not go OB first. It may have entered OB territory first, but it was still in the air flying so it was not OB. It crossed the incorrect side of the mando first, THEN it came to rest OB so it became OB second.

You use the spot where the disc crossed the OB line as the spot for regular OB to determine "where it went OB" or "last spot IB". Why would you not use the same logic here?

See above. Two infractions happened. You can't penalize a player for multiple infractions, so the penalty goes to the first infraction and any subsequent infraction is dropped. The disc missed the mando first, THEN it came to rest OB at which point it officially became OB. Using that order you treat it as if the player missed the mando, so you play it out according to the rules assigned for shots that miss the mando.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm confused on how the OB and mando was set up on hole 17. The hole map doesn't show the mando which apparently was added since this GBO map: http://glassblownopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ECC-Hole-17.png

 

[araytx]

The 2013 "Rules Changes" themselves have been changed.

This is the relevant link is here.

Under Changes section, last two lines of the 3rd paragraph:

Ties are broken by chronological order of the violations. For example, a throw that goes OB and then crosses the wrong side of a mandatory is OB.

.
I am guessing the the last Rules School on Mandatories was based upon this interpretation.


However those lines no longer appear in the "Application of the Rules section" 2015 update. It simply says in 801.01 H.,

A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.

.

Maybe someone told the RC that the 2013 interpretation contradicted the new definitions of position and lie. THOUGH the throw may have (as we see in our minds) crossed OB first, it wasn't officially an OB throw until after it had missed the mando. It came to rest beyond the mando. That also means that those rules school answers in the previous posts are wrong --the ones ruled OB even though they came to rest beyond the mando.

 

[notroman]

I'm confused on how the OB and mando was set up on hole 17. The hole map doesn't show the mando which apparently was added since this GBO map: http://glassblownopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ECC-Hole-17.png

In GBO Simon (and maybe a few others?) cut the dog leg throwing shots over the top of trees. I'm guessing the event organizers saw that and made one of the trees a mando tree to stop people from doing that.

 

[Steve West]

I think Paul's said before it's better that Nikko takes longer because he is more apt to miss them. That's probably why he doesn't call it, but gets bent out of shape for an allegedly unmarked disc of a competitor who is winning. Interesting dynamic.

804.01 Excessive Time
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
1. The previous player has thrown; and,
2. The player has had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the disc; and,
3. The playing area is clear and free of distractions.
B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round.

801.01 Application of the Rules
B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. Calls must be made promptly.
E. A rules violation that results in a warning may be called by any player in the group, or by an official. All players in the group shall be advised of the warning, and it shall be noted on the scorecard.

When a player is taking too long to throw, it is the duty of all the other players in the group to call an Excessive Time violation. Just a warning, no big deal.

801.04 Courtesy
D. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, is a courtesy violation.

Failing to call the Excessive Time violation is a Courtesy Violation. Anyone in ANY group can call this violation on the other players in the group with the slow player. Probably just a warning, unless they already have another courtesy violation.

3.3 Player Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to further disciplinary actions from the PDGA.
B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this conduct include but are not limited to:
(11) Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition.

Finally, everyone in the group that refuses to call Excessive Time violations is subject to disqualification for acting in an unprofessional manner.


I bet one disqualification of a World Champion for not calling Excessive Time violations would make people think twice about refusing to call rules.

 

[august dupree]

You use the spot where the disc crossed the OB line as the spot for regular OB to determine "where it went OB" or "last spot IB". Why would you not use the same logic here?

Because the disc is not considered to be OB until it comes to rest. In the case of B/D, the disc comes to rest AFTER it misses the Mando. This is where the confusion lies. Saying that the Mando rule supercedes the OB rule is not really the correct way of saying it. But I believe that Devin's throw passed the mando before it came to rest OB, therefore, proceeding to the DZ was the correct play. Had he gone to the last point IB per the rules school, I don't think that's right.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Based on what I've heard, the OB penalty should be applied first as long as the disc remained OB at the end of the flight. If the disc flew over OB and landed inbounds but missed the mando along the way, then the missed mando is applied.

 

[Vonbeezy1]

The real issue is that when anyone does call anything, the DG 'community' loses its collective mind and the player that enforces the rules is the one who is wrong. Cases in point: Stokely's foot faults last year and McBeth daring to expect players to mark their damn discs.

And since the online community, for better or worse, is a representation of the community as a whole, apparently expecting players to follow the rules is what constitutes bad sportsmanship, not the other way around.

It's a real ****show, and Smashboxx putting the timer up is a bad choice. It just highlights the unprofessional professional disc golf. Save that for the podcast and analysis, not the live feed.

You just opened the worms so I have to respond. Ppl got bent out of shape with the Stokely call because it was very hard to tell if he was actually foot faulting and KC and PB were being arrogant ****heads like usual. Not to mention it just so happened that they were both team Innova and Stokely wasnt

 

[august dupree]

When a player is taking too long to throw, it is the duty of all the other players in the group to call an Excessive Time violation. Just a warning, no big deal.


Failing to call the Excessive Time violation is a Courtesy Violation. Anyone in ANY group can call this violation on the other players in the group with the slow player. Probably just a warning, unless they already have another courtesy violation.



Finally, everyone in the group that refuses to call Excessive Time violations is subject to disqualification for acting in an unprofessional manner.


I bet one disqualification of a World Champion for not calling Excessive Time violations would make people think twice about refusing to call rules.

Oh that's rich. opcorn:

 

[Steve West]

I'm confused on how the OB and mando was set up on hole 17. The hole map doesn't show the mando which apparently was added since this GBO map: http://glassblownopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ECC-Hole-17.png

http://www.pdga.com/files/emporia_cc_course_info.pdf

 

[Steve West]

Based on what I've heard, the OB penalty should be applied first as long as the disc remained OB at the end of the flight. If the disc flew over OB and landed inbounds but missed the mando along the way, then the missed mando is applied.

The rules are not absolutely clear on whether a mando or OB was violated first.

Technically, you haven't missed a mando until the disc has come to rest. So, both violations happen at the exact same time.

However, everyone at the top who makes final rulings about appeals is certain the Mando rule should be applied. We had a discussion in the war room during 2014 Am Worlds.

 

[Lefty23899]

Wouldn't 804.01A (3) leave a lot of leeway against excessive time calls. It's very easy to claim distraction, no matter how silly it may seem, and the 30 seconds should then reset.

 

[onemilemore]

PDGA Statement on Disc Marking: http://discgolf.ultiworld.com/livew...garding-disc-marking-question-round-3-worlds/