Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[disc-golf-neil]

I forgot about you posting that video.

But, that wasn't really my request buddy. I didn't ask for a 10 throws nose angle guessing competition, I asked for a side by side video of you throwing the same "exact" throw, where you out emphasis on "turn the key" in one of the throws. More to let you show that in your opinion, its a viable thing (you might already have done that in your channel?).

For me, I do think that an active conscious movement of the wrist in the "hit sequence" could be a recipe for disaster for many people struggling with nose angle. I would imagine that many people would tense up in the wrist/forearm and that could lead to the wrist not working as a hinge and perhaps put strain somewhere. But that's just my opinion and I'm open to change my view.

When (pro) people supinate or get ulnar deviation, during their power pocket and "out", do you believe is a conscious movement (by muscle memory or not) or do you believe its a byproduct of good mechanics?

Would there be any clear advantage for people with good mechanics, throwing let says, 0 degrees nose angle to actively "turn the key" to get a -5 nose angle? At what point does nose angle have diminishing return in turns of distance and flight?

Look at the end of the video, it has the side by sides.

It has:
Normal throw (maintaining supinated wrist, aka static) vs Turn the key (dynamic supination)
Normal throw vs dynamic pronation
Normal throw vs inverted swoop (extra low reachback that levels out into the power pocket)

Conscious or not is a separate question from what impact the mechanic actually does. I'm sure there are pros who have developed turn the key consciously and others who have developed it subconsciously. Many pros are heavily influenced by other pro's forms who they watched while developing their game and have modeled their form after that pro, so in those cases there's probably more conscious development of turn the key if they see it in the pro they model after. It's not BH but an example of this I've heard is Gannon said he modeled his forehand on Jeremy Koling and tried to keep his wrist loose like Jeremy's whereas many pros cock their wrist back actively in the backswing of the forehand (pre-extended wrist). Connor O'Reilly told me consciously pre-extending his wrist on forehand helped out his forehand game. So there's lot's of examples of pros making conscious decisions to develop or tweak form and lots of examples of them intuitively developing things where if you ask them about it they will say "I don't know, it just happens". Gannon seems very cerebral to me from having asked him analytical form questions in person that are questions he's probably not received often and he has an instant reply because he's already thought about it consciously.

I agree about people turn the key having potential to be a recipe for disaster and the fundamentals should be prioritized first. It's not an easy mechanic to learn initially, but it can quickly start to feel natural once you get over the initial barrier of it being weird. Especially if you start with slow standstills to build up the muscle memory.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it!

Would you believe that pros who "briefcase" it, supinate as an active thing or would you believe it's a "natural" way for the wrist/forearm to react when the elbow unravels? I would think the latter, but then again, I'm open for debate.

My body is killing me these days, otherwise I would've been on the way to the field to test it out

It can feel unnatural if you're not used to it but it definitely feels like a natural rotation that synchronizes well with other mechanics that are also happening.

To feel this natural feel in a gentle way, try it with putting up close to the basket. Use small arm motion to focus on the wrist instead. Pronate your wrist to let the disc tilt down on hyzer, then curl the wrist (flexion), then flick the wrist with wrist extension + supination and after doing that for a while you will probably feel it unwinding together in one fluid motion. If you compare that to holding the disc flat and just use wrist flexion + wrist extension while maintaining the same supination, you might even find out that it doesn't feel as powerful and feels more restrictive.

You'll also probably notice with the pronation-to-supination added in, your elbow naturally wants to drop a bit due to external shoulder rotation because as the elbow extends, external rotation goes in the same direction as supination, so it helps you add more power in the supination direction. But this is a risk for the throw because the same temptation exists and might cause people to externally rotate their shoulder too much during the throw just from trying to add supination. But that added external rotation is also part of the reason the putt stroke with the added pronation-to-supination might feel a bit stronger, because you start automatically recruiting more shoulder rotation too.

 

[Kennets]

Look at the end of the video, it has the side by sides.

It has:
Normal throw (maintaining supinated wrist, aka static) vs Turn the key (dynamic supination)
Normal throw vs dynamic pronation
Normal throw vs inverted swoop (extra low reachback that levels out into the power pocket)

Conscious or not is a separate question from what impact the mechanic actually does. I'm sure there are pros who have developed turn the key consciously and others who have developed it subconsciously. Many pros are heavily influenced by other pro's forms who they watched while developing their game and have modeled their form after that pro, so in those cases there's probably more conscious development of turn the key if they see it in the pro they model after. It's not BH but an example of this I've heard is Gannon said he modeled his forehand on Jeremy Koling and tried to keep his wrist loose like Jeremy's whereas many pros cock their wrist back actively in the backswing of the forehand (pre-extended wrist). Connor O'Reilly told me consciously pre-extending his wrist on forehand helped out his forehand game. So there's lot's of examples of pros making conscious decisions to develop or tweak form and lots of examples of them intuitively developing things where if you ask them about it they will say "I don't know, it just happens". Gannon seems very cerebral to me from having asked him analytical form questions in person that are questions he's probably not received often and he has an instant reply because he's already thought about it consciously.

I agree about people turn the key having potential to be a recipe for disaster and the fundamentals should be prioritized first. It's not an easy mechanic to learn initially, but it can quickly start to feel natural once you get over the initial barrier of it being weird. Especially if you start with slow standstills to build up the muscle memory.

I would believe there's a vast difference between it being conscious or not, in terms on how it should be communicated to an audience (SoME, coaching etc).

The thread is/were about using "turning the key" as a viable cue to teach people how to throw nose down (OT's video) and as you said yourself, fundamentals should be a higher priority.

Sure it will help a lot if players, but should they focus on other stuff? Probably.

In my opinion, supination, ulvar deviation etc will come naturally and the player will adjust accordingly as their mechanics gets better (in most cases).

Do we/you need to put that much effort into the subject? I really don't think so, but I'm glad you're testing stuff and telling us about it!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I would believe there's a vast difference between it being conscious or not, in terms on how it should be communicated to an audience (SoME, coaching etc).

The thread is/were about using "turning the key" as a viable cue to teach people how to throw nose down (OT's video) and as you said yourself, fundamentals should be a higher priority.

Sure it will help a lot if players, but should they focus on other stuff? Probably.

In my opinion, supination, ulvar deviation etc will come naturally and the player will adjust accordingly as their mechanics gets better (in most cases).

Do we/you need to put that much effort into the subject? I really don't think so, but I'm glad you're testing stuff and telling us about it!

1. What are the effects of the mechanic, when it's actually implemented, on different throw styles (pendulum, inverted swoop, normal diagonally upwards on plane pull through--for throwing upwards and nose down)
2. What are the effects of the cue, on average, when taught to people with fairly good fundamentals
3. What are the effects of the cue, on average, when taught to people with poor fundamentals
4. When is this cue useful for coaching and when is it not?

These are all separate questions. Most of my posts and replies are focused on #1 and people seem to keep thinking I'm saying this cue should be taught to players with poor fundamentals or something to help them get nose down. So then Some of my replies focused on #3 to clarify that I do not recommend this cue for people with poor fundamentals.

#2) There's a high chance it will increase nose down since the player already has fairly good fundamentals and can probably learn the technique if they stick with it for a little bit. If they fail to implement it, that's not a case against the actual mechanic but a case against the cue or their ability to implement the mechanic most likely. It has worked for me robustly throughout 3 quite different throw styles (inverted swoop, pendulum, regular upwards on plane-ish) and I've seen it work for numerous pros, and also for AMs with decent fundamentals who tried it with my tech disc. There were times where it looked like they did it and it didn't increase nose down, but the timing is very specific, as I showed in the 10 throws vid, and so then suddenly on another one of their throws they get double the nose down when the timing was actually implemented well. In the 10 throw vid I did not show turn the key + inverted swoop though, but I've tested it before. I'm not recommending combining the two, it's just another example of it still working in another type of swing.

#3) Increase in problems, do not recommend.

#4) When the player has good fundamentals (no obviously major form issues), likes to experiment, and wants more nose down, I think it's worth trying unless they are focused on trying to work on something else already. However, even if they aren't trying to get more nose down, it could still be worth trying at some point because it does produce a different swing-feel that some might really like and even feel more powerful while doing.

 

[RowingBoats]

I literally brought up a point that's likely something he hasn't had to address much before. That should be an interesting opportunity for a coach to think about if the coach or teacher to consider.

The point was about how the same amount of supination at the hit can have two different impacts if one of them was maintained supination for longer vs the other being actively supinating up to the hit. The active supination has supination-momentum coming into the hit and that momentum has an impact that is missing from the other case of maintained supination.

Are you describing deliberately adding OAT here?

I don't agree with deliberately adding 'supination momentum' being a good goal.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Are you describing deliberately adding OAT here?

I don't agree with deliberately adding 'supination momentum' being a good goal.

Just wrote a long post separating out the different questions that are often being conflated together so that might clear up some of this question.

In terms of OAT, it depends how we are defining it but either way, I'm not entirely sure and I think it's likely to be easily misunderstood. GG has some of the lowest wobble on his tech disc stats despite visibly seeing the disc bend during the supination phase. It could be that the tech disc reads the wobble late and it's already stabilized due to his insanely high RPMs.

I've had hard turn the key throws be unusually high in wobble and hard turn the key throws being unusually low in wobble. So I think, even if the disc visible bends (while it's in the hand still, which is key), if the supination is timed well it merges into a fluid motion with the wrist uncurling so that the moment of release still ends up clean despite it seemingly being something that would add OAT (but most of that 'seeming to add OAT' is while it's still in the hand, so there's time for it to unfold onto axis).

The windmill forehand motion seems like a good analogy. For an untrained player it will probably increase OAT, but for a pro, the arm motion smoothly moves closer to the wrist extension axis to become aligned.

 

[RowingBoats]

There were times where it looked like they did it and it didn't increase nose down, but the timing is very specific

This statement is precisely why I think it is a poor cue. Nothing about my swing feels like it has 'very specific' timing. I have definitely tried cues like this, and maybe it can work, but its an obnoxious way to conceptualize the move imo.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This statement is precisely why I think it is a poor cue. Nothing about my swing feels like it has 'very specific' timing. I have definitely tried cues like this, and maybe it can work, but its an obnoxious way to conceptualize the move imo.

Sometimes trying to keep the wrist rotation steady is less natural and more forced feeling than allowing it to rotate and become on axis later on. Of course the most natural one will be the one you are more used to, but if someone with good fundamentals trained both equally, they may find that turn the key actually feels smoother / more fluid. Of course another person who does the same may find the opposite.

 

[RowingBoats]

Just wrote a long post separating out the different questions that are often being conflated together so that might clear up some of this question.

In terms of OAT, it depends how we are defining it but either way, I'm not entirely sure and I think it's likely to be easily misunderstood. GG has some of the lowest wobble on his tech disc stats despite visibly seeing the disc bend during the supination phase. It could be that the tech disc reads the wobble late and it's already stabilized due to his insanely high RPMs.

I've had hard turn the key throws be unusually high in wobble and hard turn the key throws being unusually low in wobble. So I think, even if the disc visible bends (while it's in the hand still, which is key), if the supination is timed well it merges into a fluid motion with the wrist uncurling so that the moment of release still ends up clean despite it seemingly being something that would add OAT (but most of that 'seeming to add OAT' is while it's still in the hand, so there's time for it to unfold onto axis).

The windmill forehand motion seems like a good analogy. For an untrained player it will probably increase OAT, but for a pro, the arm motion smoothly moves closer to the wrist extension axis to become aligned.

I don't think the definition of OAT is really disputed. To me, you are very literally describing adding OAT if you are deliberately adding 'supination' momentum into the swing.

I'm not saying it can't work, maybe you can time it and have it impart force on axis, but...the way you are talking about this is pretty much exactly why I think its a subpar cue. Trying to time this type of thing is just an inconsistency I don't want to introduce into my swing, when the alternative is much, much simpler.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't think the definition of OAT is really disputed. To me, you are very literally describing adding OAT if you are deliberately adding 'supination' momentum into the swing.

I'm not saying it can't work, maybe you can time it and have it impart force on axis, but...the way you are talking about this is pretty much exactly why I think its a subpar cue. Trying to time this type of thing is just an inconsistency I don't want to introduce into my swing, when the alternative is much, much simpler.

So why do you think so many pros do it? Many pros come into the pocket with less supination than they end up with during the hit. Why would many converge on this unnecessary added complexity?

I'm curious in the isolated and slowish putting stroke vid I posted just before, how it feels to you to compare it. Just raw feeling.

 

[RowingBoats]

So why do you think so many pros do it? Many pros come into the pocket with less supination than they end up with during the hit. Why would many unnecessary complexity?

I'm curious in the isolated and slowish putting stroke vid I posted just before, how it feels to you to compare it. Just raw feeling.

I suppose...I don't think most pros are trying to time supination at the hit in their swings.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I suppose...I don't think most pros are trying to time supination at the hit in their swings.

Regardless of if they are 'trying to' or not, they HAVE TO time it if they come into the pocket with less supination than they end with at the hit, and when the timing is off there is an impact that they probably feel and therefore become more aware of.

I specifically asked Gannon this question: When throwing anhyzers, do you keep more pronation / supinate less than hyzers. And he said yes. So he's thought about when to supinate more.

People might think, wait a second, wouldn't more pronation = more nose up then? Not if the swing plane is adjusted, which it is on anhyzers, to stay aligned with the rim which is angled differently due to more pronation in this case.

Interestingly though, in the current preserve tournament / lately I've seen more throws than before from him where he is already supinated coming into the pocket. Will be interesting to see if this is a form evolution or temporary, or maybe I' misremembering.

 

[RowingBoats]

Regardless of if they are 'trying to' or not, they HAVE TO time it if they come into the pocket with less supination than they end with at the hit, and when the timing is off there is an impact that they probably feel and therefore become more aware of.

I specifically asked Gannon this question: When throwing anhyzers, do you keep more pronation / supinate less than hyzers. And he said yes. So he's thought about when to supinate more.

People might think, wait a second, wouldn't more pronation = more nose up then? Not if the swing plane is adjusted, which it is on anhyzers, to stay aligned with the rim which is angled differently due to more pronation in this case.

Interestingly though, in the current preserve tournament / lately I've seen more throws than before from him where he is already supinated coming into the pocket. Will be interesting to see if this is a form evolution or temporary, or maybe I' misremembering.

I just think you are getting lost in some needlessly pedantic and dense weeds my friend. This is all a lot simpler in the end.

If this is the way you personally need to think about things to progress/understand I get it, but I don't think this is how most people will learn.

Edit - That said, I do believe that Gannon probably does think in a similar, hyper analytical way. I don't deny that it can work. From what I can tell, Eagle is that way as well.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I just think you are getting lost in some needlessly pedantic and dense weeds my friend. This is all a lot simpler in the end.

If this is the way you personally need to think about things to progress/understand I get it, but I don't think this is how most people will learn.

I also don't think most people are suited for thinking about it this much. But this forum is not most people, it's a self selected group of people that are already thinking and discussing things much more deeply than most.

It should be clear by now that my approach is working for me, is it really getting in the weeds if it's working? I've been playing for less than a year, and within a few months of getting the tech disc I can choose a nose angle between these: slightly nose up, neutral / slightly down, medium nose down, or extreme nose down. Of course I can't hit each one on command every time, but just a couple throws for each category I can get each one.

 

[Kennets]

I genuinely think you're an outlier mate. Nothing bad about that, but as many has said, the majority might not benefit from what you're doing.

You might be on to something or you might not. I think having a baseline throw where you don't have to think about turning the key would be good for you and then work around from there (which you probably already have).


For now, I'll stick with "it's a byproduct of good form/biomechanics".

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I genuinely think you're an outlier mate. Nothing bad about that, but as many has said, the majority might not benefit from what you're doing.

You might be on to something or you might not. I think having a baseline throw where you don't have to think about turning the key would be good for you and then work around from there (which you probably already have).


For now, I'll stick with "it's a byproduct of good form/biomechanics".

I do have a baseline throw without turning the key. One for ~+3 nose up and one for ~-3 nose down. I showed them in the vid.

 

[Kennets]

This discussion has been going on for way too long, let me derail the thread a little.

I throw nose up, bad.. it's been creeping in on me because I rarely do any form work these days.

Fun part: I can smash putters out there

Not so fun part: my drivers doesn't go any further and I can't hit any lines with them.

At this point, I might just switch out my bag to putters and neutral mids.

Happy days

 

[Kennets]

I do have a baseline throw without turning the key. One for ~+3 nose up and one for ~-3 nose down. I showed them in the vid.

I believe my baseline throw is around +20 these days if not more lol.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I believe my baseline throw is around +20 these days if not more lol.

Sounds like pronation, as you can see in my vid even if with a big down-up swooping throw you can get nose down as long as I don't pronate.

I've seen people spend months with the tech disc trying to get the nose down, trying tons of things and nothing works, doesn't look like a lot of pronation in the footage / hard to see, then finally report lower nose angles after they eventually went back to working on their wrist to not pronate.

It's actually hard to get +20 nose up without pronation, not sure if I can do it unless I pronate.

 

[RowingBoats]

slightly nose up, neutral / slightly down, medium nose down, or extreme nose down.

And do you claim to utilize this for hyper omega specific shot shaping, or what lol?

I am genuinely curious.