Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Sheep]

But if those other form issues are corrected then it's not a bandaid but people keep talking about it as if it is inherently a bandaid.

This is where your hubris is shining.

You don't have enough understanding to know why it works, and what your band-aiding.
Your conclusion is "this is a must do to be successful" not realizing the mistakes its covering up.

And, imo, it should be as uncontroversial as the "I" in: When i really pronate my wrist into the hit (roll it under) i get a lot of nose up.

Very few people would say: "The key word is "I" for that". This is just simply the opposite of the wrist motion that is pretty much common knowledge for nose up. People use the opposite of key turn wrist rotation to tactically throw floaty soft landing nose up approach shots.

The #1 reason I think it's controversial is that many people accidentally throw with pronation (rolling the wrist under) and throw nose up. So it's uncontroversial from an overwhelming amount of converging experiences that it results in nose up. However, since it's so hard for people to stop doing pronation and to dial in their swing plane, many people fail to successfully turn the key so there isn't as much overwhelming converging evidence that it's nose down because the masses are good at throwing nose up but not good at implementing nose down techniques.

Yes, most people throw nose up because they pronate in the swing.
Do you know why they pronate in the swing?

It's not because they "don't turn the key."

Turn the key is a fix for people who are pronating because of other bad form issues. All it does is mask the issue that's causing the problem in the first place.

Yeah, it works. We get it and your stuck on it being "the way" or whatever.

Some people are so emotionally dead set on this topic they not even able to listen to anyone else.

Sidewinder didn't even come back into the chat because you just kicked him in the shin when he spoke up.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I thought you were expert now, you should be able to figure it out.

Pete ulibari has a video on it also.

In this thread you didn't post a picture of the disc fully in the hand that I saw. So there's no good starting point reference just pics where the disc is already out of the hand.

Care to guess which throw is most nose down, 2nd most nose down, most nose up, and 2nd most nose up?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This is where your hubris is shining.

You don't have enough understanding to know why it works, and what your band-aiding.
Your conclusion is "this is a must do to be successful" not realizing the mistakes its covering up.




Yes, most people throw nose up because they pronate in the swing.
Do you know why they pronate in the swing?

It's not because they "don't turn the key."

Turn the key is a fix for people who are pronating because of other bad form issues. All it does is mask the issue that's causing the problem in the first place.

Yeah, it works. We get it and your stuck on it being "the way" or whatever.

Some people are so emotionally dead set on this topic they not even able to listen to anyone else.

Sidewinder didn't even come back into the chat because you just kicked him in the shin when he spoke up.

I think there are potentially many causes.

Some people do it because of a downward pull through and they have to suddenly correct in an upwards direction and pronation tilts the disc up so it's intuitive to do that.

Pinning the elbow down with a collapsed shoulder means that supination can point the rim completely at the ground so you have to get used to more pronation to throw like that.

When people are throwing upwards with otherwise good form, it's still easy to give in to pronation because it feels upwards so the feeling pairs well with throwing upwards. Maintaining supination or actively supinating while throwing upwards is less intuitive and has some feeling of oppositional forces.

Then when other fixes to the rest of the arm and throw plane are attempted there is a lot of pronation muscle memory and lack of ever having trained intentional wrist control so people literally barely have proprioception of their wrist during a throw.

I've never said or suggested that anyone with messed up arm mechanics can just turn the key to fix their nose angle. But it seems like you are arguing against that sometimes. My stance is that if you have decent form and elbow / shoulder positions then turn the key is very powerful for nose down. It's even powerful in some other situations too but that's not the important point.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here's the vid.
Guess the nose angles, either for each throw or maybe just the most nose up and most nose down.

Which throw is most nose down? - Online Poll - StrawPoll (excluding the putting strokes)
Which throw is most nose up - Online Poll - StrawPoll (excluding the putting strokes)

The reveal vid will come out Sunday morning.

Would you guys consider throw 9 and 10 to be off-plane? They both intentionally have more of a curving pull through.

 

[RowingBoats]

When people are trying to "turn the key" they are more than likely anti pronating, not supinating.

Which was the point of my explanation, youre not doing some magic thing to flip the disc around and make it nose down.

I think this is almost the entire picture lol.

It is quite uncomfortable to figure out how to throw nose down. Pretty darn anti-intuitive in my experience. After you throw for a few years it feels normal though, but I can see really leaning on more exaggerated cues to make it work when its not super comfy.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think this is almost the entire picture lol.

It is quite uncomfortable to figure out how to throw nose down. Pretty darn anti-intuitive in my experience. After you throw for a few years it feels normal though, but I can see really leaning on more exaggerated cues to make it work when it's not super comfy.

Entire picture? If someone only doesn't pronate that's not the same as if they supinate.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Even if you had two perfectly identical throws, all else equal, with the wrist having the same amount of supination in it at the moment of release the following two cases could still affect the nose angle differently:

1. The supination amount was maintained (static) during the moments before and up to the release
2. The wrist was actively supinating in the moments before and up to the release (dynamic)

Even with both cases ending with the same amount of supination at the moment of release, case #2 is likely to impart more force on the disc in the direction of supination compared to #1, all else equal.

This is probably why when I finish turning the key early and end up having to just maintain the supination I got to until the hit, I don't get as nose down as if I am still supinating closer to the hit.

 

[RowingBoats]

Even if you had two perfectly identical throws, all else equal, with the wrist having the same amount of supination in it at the moment of release the following two cases could still affect the nose angle differently:

1. The supination amount was maintained (static) during the moments before and up to the release
2. The wrist was actively supinating in the moments before and up to the release (dynamic)

Even with both cases ending with the same amount of supination at the moment of release, case #2 is likely to impart more force on the disc in the direction of supination compared to #1, all else equal.

This is probably why when I finish turning the key early and end up having to just maintain the supination I got to until the hit, I don't get as nose down as if I am still supinating closer to the hit.

It's possible you are correct here, but...

Why does that matter? I'm not trying to be argumentative lol I really like you being around this place and I dig your hyper analytical approach to a lot of stuff. But..there is this weird assumption making the rounds that you benefit from more nose down, and...I just dont buy it

 

[RowingBoats]

Entire picture? If someone only doesn't pronate that's not the same as if they supinate.

Are you able to throw nose down without supinating? And by this I mean your wrist is in the position to give a thumbs up, the palm side is not angled upwards.

Any amount of ulnar deviation is fine. I am just curious

 

[disc-golf-neil]

youre not doing some magic thing to flip the disc around and make it nose down.

"Any sufficiently nose down techniqueology is indistinguishable from magic"

I'll 'magically' flip it -18 degrees for you, or more if you want.

 

[Nick Carroll]

But..there is this weird assumption making the rounds that you benefit from more nose down, and...I just dont buy it

It's been bandied around by some of the coaches here and even made one of the OT videos. It's more for higher launch angle throws where distance is key. I think for lower golf lines it's not as important, but the real importance is getting the nose angle down from positive 4 and 8 degrees, which is common for a lot of lower-skill throwers who commonly throw too high. I think there's a law of diminishing returns here, but it IS important to get it down. And it looks like fixing the swing plane is key, but grip can cause issues too.

It might be somewhat individualized as a lot of us have slightly different hands, etc. I think it's worth it for someone to do a lot of experimentation in this area. May very well be applicable for a lot of people. Even if you have a good swing plane, you might want to make sure the grip is such that it helps ensure the nose angle is good.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I guess people are afraid to guess the nose angles in public and be accused of making shit up about nose angle , or hopefully people are just out having fun on the weekend, lol.

So, I'll just release the reveal early:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Are you able to throw nose down without supinating? And by this I mean your wrist is in the position to give a thumbs up, the palm side is not angled upwards.

Any amount of ulnar deviation is fine. I am just curious

Throw 3 might be this (-3.5 nose with ulnar deviation) and throw 9 (-4.7 nose without ulnar deviation).

The wrist position you described feels like it's more supinated than it is pronated when in the power pocket position because you have to hold up the weight of the disc and have fewer degrees of remaining supination available compared to how many degrees of pronation you have available from that position.

The grip adjustment in throw 3 appears like it will be more nose up, based on how I turned the disc to get to that new alignment, but if you put your hand and wrist at the hit point position, you can use your off hand to make the grip adjustment by instead tilting the rim in the direction that supination would've tilted it and that will get you to the same new grip position. That's why I think it's more nose down, it's slightly pre-tilted in the same way supination tilts it but without requiring as much supination.

 

[RowingBoats]

It's been bandied around by some of the coaches here and even made one of the OT videos. It's more for higher launch angle throws where distance is key. I think for lower golf lines it's not as important, but the real importance is getting the nose angle down from positive 4 and 8 degrees, which is common for a lot of lower-skill throwers who commonly throw too high. I think there's a law of diminishing returns here, but it IS important to get it down. And it looks like fixing the swing plane is key, but grip can cause issues too.

It might be somewhat individualized as a lot of us have slightly different hands, etc. I think it's worth it for someone to do a lot of experimentation in this area. May very well be applicable for a lot of people. Even if you have a good swing plane, you might want to make sure the grip is such that it helps ensure the nose angle is good.

Yes, I think NOT throwing nose up is most of the battle, and what most people should actually have as their goal.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This is prob why grip adjustment from throw 3 is more consistently nose down than throw 1 and 2 when trying to throw with the same form.

The nose angle diff between them holds up in larger sample sizes from previous tests.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It's possible you are correct here, but...

Why does that matter? I'm not trying to be argumentative lol I really like you being around this place and I dig your hyper analytical approach to a lot of stuff. But..there is this weird assumption making the rounds that you benefit from more nose down, and...I just dont buy it

If someone were equally as consistent at throwing -4 nose down or +2 nose up and equally consistent at throwing the launch angle and hyzer angle that best match those nose angles and the disc choice and throw speed, it probably wouldn't affect scoring potential much at all and might not affect max distance as much as most people think until you get to more nose up. Idk the physics though so someone might be able to say otherwise for max distance, but the tech disc sim also uses physics and if you tweak only the launch, nose, and hyzer angles to get the optimal full flight from each you can get similar distances.

I haven't done -4 to +2 but I did 0 and -4 in the sim and it was similar max distance. I think it's just that nose down is more forgiving with minor mistakes. Oops a little too nose down or oops only nose neutral and it's not as punishing as if you are already slightly nose up and go a bit more nose up accidentally from there. There was someone on here using a physics sim and I thought they corroborated these findings from the tech disc sim with their own sim, but don't fully remember.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I guess people are afraid to guess the nose angles in public and be accused of making shit up about nose angle , or hopefully people are just out having fun on the weekend, lol.

So, I'll just release the reveal early:

I honestly couldn't tell most of the time. I couldn't really differentiate from the launch and nose angle at a glance. I'm sure if I went frame by frame and used some tool to draw lines I could have posited a guess, but I just see the disc going up and even in slow motion, it just looks like nose up - even some of the nose down throws (except the most extreme ones).

 

[Nick Carroll]

Yes, I think NOT throwing nose up is most of the battle, and what most people should actually have as their goal.

Yeah definitely. And I think some people might need a little help in terms of grip or modifying their swing path more. Assuming someone has a good swing path, yet still throws, say, 4 degrees of nose up - and it's not intentional. I think that's when they might want to look at grip.

And I think that's where Neil's testing comes in handy. I think eventually we should look for maybe a list of most effective to least effective nose down techniques, and have people try them out AS NEEDED once they get their swing path correct.

I know for myself I have a bad swing path. I've been working on it, but I've also received input from others that a) my grip wasn't tight enough, b) therefore fingers are open straight as the disc releases. I've also been told to c) curl the wrist a touch more. Those things not being done correctly apparently makes worse the issues I have with my swoop. So it means the disc behaves worse with the swoop, because of my grip.

So at this point the checkbox of fixing swing plane is the first thing to check off. But I do think it's worth building a skill to further bring the nose down - maybe just for the shots that need it, like distance anhyzer lines - or whatever.

 

[Nick Carroll]

One thing I wanted to spell out more, not as a reply to anyone in particular, but it seems to me the higher the launch angle, the more useful negative nose angles are. Maybe that's a rule of thumb, with likely a list of exceptions I'm just unaware of.

Keep in mind I'm not a disc golf coach, and I don't want to remotely put off the impression I am, or that I think I am. I consider myself a disc golf cheerleader. I'm cheering the rest of you on to figure these things out.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I honestly couldn't tell most of the time. I couldn't really differentiate from the launch and nose angle at a glance. I'm sure if I went frame by frame and used some tool to draw lines I could have posited a guess, but I just see the disc going up and even in slow motion, it just looks like nose up - even some of the nose down throws (except the most extreme ones).

Yeah part of it is the side view + hyzer angle, the hyzer angle from that camera angle can make it appear more nose up than it sometimes and any slight change to launch angle from the throw plane is easily misinterpreted as a change in nose angle. Would be nice if I could throw perfectly flat to get a really nice level side view haha.

But also I wanted people to guess from form and mechanics more than trying to watch the initial flight of the disc. Like putting people's first principles on form / mechanics to the test.