Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[StupendousMan]

I haven't watched it yet but I just saw Janni put out a video about the turn the key cue

 

[disc-golf-neil]

People who haven't extensively tested turn the key with a tech disc seem to misattribute qualities to it that are not direct qualities of it but are side effects that are avoided when you get better at implementing the technique. Probably because most of their experience is seeing people botch it or themselves botching it and then misattribute the botched aspects to turning the key itself.

If your swing plane is decent, and you successfully turn the key, it does the same thing on every release angle and launch angle.

I get nose down when I turn the key for low launch angle hyzer flips
I get nose down when I turn the key for higher launch angle pushing hyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key for spike hyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on low launch angle anhyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on higher launch angle pushing anhyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on sky anhyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on flatter release angles at low launch angles
I get nose down when I turn the key on flatter release angles at higher launch angles

What I agree on is:
- getting your swing plane to a pretty good place and not accidentally pronating your wrist should be a priority before trying to turn the key
- it's hard to get it down consistently, it's an advanced dynamic technique, however, trying to be too rigid without any wrist rotation can be awkward, so having a small turn the key can actually feel more natural once developed.
- turning the key increases the risk of externally rotating the shoulder because that rotation is in the same direction as supination when the elbow is extended so it's tempting to do both. But if you externally rotate a lot while trying to turn the key, you aren't successfully implementing turn the key.
- certain release angles will be easier for certain people to successfully turn the key whereas other release angles will be harder to learn to turn the key without accidentally introducing a side effect. This is just generally true for many things because people are usually more comfortable with either hyzer or anhyzer and can implement changes better for one compared to the other.

 

[Sheep]

People who haven't extensively tested turn the key with a tech disc seem to misattribute qualities to it that are not direct qualities of it but are side effects that are avoided when you get better at implementing the technique. Probably because most of their experience is seeing people botch it or themselves botching it and then misattribute the botched aspects to turning the key itself.

If your swing plane is decent, and you successfully turn the key, it does the same thing on every release angle and launch angle.

I get nose down when I turn the key for low launch angle hyzer flips
I get nose down when I turn the key for higher launch angle pushing hyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key for spike hyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on low launch angle anhyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on higher launch angle pushing anhyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on sky anhyzers
I get nose down when I turn the key on flatter release angles at low launch angles
I get nose down when I turn the key on flatter release angles at higher launch angles

What I agree on is:
- getting your swing plane to a pretty good place and not accidentally pronating your wrist should be a priority before trying to turn the key
- it's hard to get it down consistently, it's an advanced dynamic technique, however, trying to be too rigid without any wrist rotation can be awkward, so having a small turn the key can actually feel more natural once developed.
- turning the key increases the risk of externally rotating the shoulder because that rotation is in the same direction as supination when the elbow is extended so it's tempting to do both. But if you externally rotate a lot while trying to turn the key, you aren't successfully implementing turn the key.
- certain release angles will be easier for certain people to successfully turn the key whereas other release angles will be harder to learn to turn the key without accidentally introducing a side effect. This is just generally true for many things because people are usually more comfortable with either hyzer or anhyzer and can implement changes better for one compared to the other.

The key word is "I" for all of that for starters.

Jaani explained really well what makes it work. And its a bandaid for form issues that can be corrected elsewhere.

The overall issue is "does it work" the answer is yes. I feel like I'm the only one addressing "why" it works and now Jaani is also. Sidewinder chimed in about it and was promptly kicked in the shin also.

The simplicity is that turning the key is a bandaid for getting proper wrist/hand angle on the swing.

The tech disc is giving correct data. I'm not gonna say its not.
It's just a lot of people teaching something and not understanding what is actually happening or why they are getting good results.

Spin and throw works too, but we know that's not a good way to throw as well.
Same with squish the bug, you can use it successfully, it's just not a good thing to do.

Sometimes the whole "if its stupid and it works" adage doesn't apply to everything.

I think Jaani outright nailed it in his video. He could have went more in depth, but he doesn't make those sorts of video's. he tries to keep it short and sweet.
But.. then, what do people who've played for 20+ years know about disc golf.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The key word is "I" for all of that for starters.

Jaani explained really well what makes it work. And its a bandaid for form issues that can be corrected elsewhere.

The overall issue is "does it work" the answer is yes. I feel like I'm the only one addressing "why" it works and now Jaani is also. Sidewinder chimed in about it and was promptly kicked in the shin also.

The simplicity is that turning the key is a bandaid for getting proper wrist/hand angle on the swing.

The tech disc is giving correct data. I'm not gonna say its not.
It's just a lot of people teaching something and not understanding what is actually happening or why they are getting good results.

Spin and throw works too, but we know that's not a good way to throw as well.
Same with squish the bug, you can use it successfully, it's just not a good thing to do.

Sometimes the whole "if its stupid and it works" adage doesn't apply to everything.

I think Jaani outright nailed it in his video. He could have went more in depth, but he doesn't make those sorts of video's. he tries to keep it short and sweet.
But.. then, what do people who've played for 20+ years know about disc golf.

But if those other form issues are corrected then it's not a bandaid but people keep talking about it as if it is inherently a bandaid.

It's still common to throw 0-4 degrees nose angle even when doing everything you say: throwing on plane (no swooping), maintaining an aligned wrist, using a grip that is commonly recognized as being good.

 

[StupendousMan]

Just finished Jaani's vid. I really liked it. Explained in a very simple way, which I think is kind of the skill part sometimes in teaching and coaching. It's relatively easy to explain something in a complex way if you understand it, it can be a much bigger skill to break it down to its simplest form and leave only what's absolutely necessary.

Anecdotally, about a year ago, before I had ever heard the term "turn they key", I had started essentially the same motion as a way to fix my nose angle. It worked very well. A year later and a lot of learning later, and I noticed that the reasons it worked had absolutely nothing to do with what I had thought intuitively, and it was actually just masking some other problems in my swing. My swing is still very, very far from perfect, but I've noticed with the changes I've made, if I try to focus on that now I just burn everything into the ground. Not saying my experience will be universal, but Jaani's ideas have synced well with me overall as long as I switch his cues to language that makes more sense to me.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The key word is "I" for all of that for starters.

And, imo, it should be as uncontroversial as the "I" in: When i really pronate my wrist into the hit (roll it under) i get a lot of nose up.

Very few people would say: "The key word is "I" for that". This is just simply the opposite of the wrist motion that is pretty much common knowledge for nose up. People use the opposite of key turn wrist rotation to tactically throw floaty soft landing nose up approach shots.

The #1 reason I think it's controversial is that many people accidentally throw with pronation (rolling the wrist under) and throw nose up. So it's uncontroversial from an overwhelming amount of converging experiences that it results in nose up. However, since it's so hard for people to stop doing pronation and to dial in their swing plane, many people fail to successfully turn the key so there isn't as much overwhelming converging evidence that it's nose down because the masses are good at throwing nose up but not good at implementing nose down techniques.

 

[Kennets]

Man, this thread gets me hyped up. I just wann go out there and turn the key so far, that my wrist pops off.

@ Neil.

You throw pretty far, are good with a camera and love a very analytical way of discussing this topic.

How about you film 2 throws, one with a mental note of "turn the key" and one without. Put them side by side in a slowmotion video, so we all could have a debate on what's going on. I would love to see that!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Man, this thread gets me hyped up. I just wann go out there and turn the key so far, that my wrist pops off.

@ Neil.

You throw pretty far, are good with a camera and love a very analytical way of discussing this topic.

How about you film 2 throws, one with a mental note of "turn the key" and one without. Put them side by side in a slowmotion video, so we all could have a debate on what's going on. I would love to see that!

Will do. I was actually planning my next video to be: guess the nose angle. With multiple different throws doing different techniques. Not explaining what I'm doing, just see if people can see from what it looks like.

Of course most people can pretty easily identify these techniques so they will just align them with what the normal expectation is but I think there might still be a surprise.

 

[CoachChris]

Will do. I was actually planning my next video to be: guess the nose angle.

Hang in there Neil, you are doing useful testing. Good on you for finding a feel to be able to control your nose angle. IMO the majority of disc golfers throw 3-7 up without knowing it or understanding how to adjust. Being able to deliberately change the nose significantly changes the flight characteristics of a disc. Keep having fun experimenting.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Hang in there Neil, you are doing useful testing. Good on you for finding a feel to be able to control your nose angle. IMO the majority of disc golfers throw 3-7 up without knowing it or understanding how to adjust. Being able to deliberately change the nose significantly changes the flight characteristics of a disc. Keep having fun experimenting.

Appreciate it. I agree about the 3-7 from my tech disc experience myself and having others throw it.

I think you'll really like this next video "Bet you can't guess the nose angle" (vid after it will reveal nose angles and explain what I adjusted).

It's something like 14 throws using different mechanical adjustments on each to manipulate the nose angle. I just recorded it all in a ~30 min span before my morning work meeting today and will edit it today. It didn't take long since I've already previously done so many throws with the tech disc testing nose angle mechanics.

BTW, I have family in Orange County. I might be able to swing by SD sometime if you happen to be available for a lesson while I'm in town!

 

[jupiterboy]

Has anyone used photography or sensors to generally define where the nose of the disc is? I've heard generalizations that it would be 90° counter from the pinch point, but no doubt there is some variance depending on grip. All seems a bit opaque.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Has anyone used photography or sensors to generally define where the nose of the disc is? I've heard generalizations that it would be 45° counter from the pinch point, but no doubt there is some variance depending on grip. All seems a bit opaque.

sheep shared a high fps vid where there was some tape on the disc or something but it seemed like it was missing context / not fully explained what the tape was indicating and where it was starting vs ending.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here's the vid.
Guess the nose angles, either for each throw or maybe just the most nose up and most nose down.

Which throw is most nose down? - Online Poll - StrawPoll (excluding the putting strokes)
Which throw is most nose up - Online Poll - StrawPoll (excluding the putting strokes)

The reveal vid will come out Sunday morning.

 

[Sewer bill]

I like where you're going with this, take it a step further and let them fly.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I like where you're going with this, take it a step further and let them fly.

Not as interested in that. I want people to try to deduce it from mechanics and hit more than just watching it fly then basing it off of that. We're mostly debating in here mechanics to get the nose down.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Edited the post with the vid link to include a poll to vote on most nose up and most nose down.

 

[Sewer bill]

Not as interested in that. I want people to try to deduce it from mechanics and hit more than just watching it fly then basing it off of that. We're mostly debating in here mechanics to get the nose down.

So this isn't about finding the optimal nose down number? Because you already demonstrated you can throw nose down.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

So this isn't about finding the optimal nose down number? Because you already demonstrated you can throw nose down.

No. That's too hard to test because it's so hard to get a similar amount of turn, speed, spin, and then a launch AND hyzer angle that works optimally with that nose angle on different throws. You have to throw both less hyzer AND lower launch angle when the nose is higher and vice versa for when the nose is lower, all else equal (disc, speed, spin, wind, etc.) The real comparison, imo, is the best full flight possible with slightly nose up vs the best full flight possible with nose down or a hyzer flip comparison where they both go straight as long as possible. Slight nose up can turn a very similar amount as nose down at the same speeds and spin if the hyzer angles are adjusted according to the tech disc sim.

If you can better control your hyzer and launch angle with 0 degree nose angle, it will be easy to throw further than if most of the time when you throw -5 the hyzer and launch angle are not as optimal.

Man, this thread gets me hyped up. I just wann go out there and turn the key so far, that my wrist pops off.

@ Neil.

You throw pretty far, are good with a camera and love a very analytical way of discussing this topic.

How about you film 2 throws, one with a mental note of "turn the key" and one without. Put them side by side in a slowmotion video, so we all could have a debate on what's going on. I would love to see that!

 

[Sheep]

Has anyone used photography or sensors to generally define where the nose of the disc is? I've heard generalizations that it would be 90° counter from the pinch point, but no doubt there is some variance depending on grip. All seems a bit opaque.

yes , i have posted it multiple times.

 

[Sheep]

sheep shared a high fps vid where there was some tape on the disc or something but it seemed like it was missing context / not fully explained what the tape was indicating and where it was starting vs ending.

I thought you were expert now, you should be able to figure it out.

Pete ulibari has a video on it also.