Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[sidewinder22]

Don't you think that the rest of your body position and timing/sequence matter on the nose angle as much or maybe more than the action of pronation or supination?

 

[Jaani]

For me, this compares to Squish the Bug. You CAN do that if it makes you feel good, and 1/10 times you nail the timing, provided your footwork sucks, and you can't brace properly. If your footwork is good, squishing the bug will only result in over-rotating.

Turning the key is the foot twist. It's unnecessary and only adds more moving parts to the throw. If your posture is good and arm works appropriately, turning the key will only result in a wormburner.

 

[Sheep]

I think this is almost the entire picture lol.

It is quite uncomfortable to figure out how to throw nose down. Pretty darn anti-intuitive in my experience. After you throw for a few years it feels normal though, but I can see really leaning on more exaggerated cues to make it work when its not super comfy.

It's just not a good way to bandaid over other issues.

Grip is a majority of peoples issues.

A lot of the things that have been taught over the years actually make you throw nose up, why they were taught I have no idea. But if you grip the disc wrong and try and pour coffee to hard, you'll pronate and pop the nose up.

The more you try and pour the coffee to get the nose down, the worse its going to get because you start loosing looseness in your joints and muscles.

Pushing down in the "pour the tea" method requires you to use muscles all the way up into your back.

While a correct grip and a slight bend in the wrist that allows it to move freely on the arm plane will fix most of the nose issue with out any key turning.

The thing to always look at is that if it seems to good to be true, its probably not the correct answer. It means it's covering up for 2 or 3 other bad things. Squish the bug is like this. It covers up multiple bad issues with footwork, looks right, and seems to work.
This is one of those things to me. The movement is to herky jerky and I'm not seeing pro players doing it.

 

[Sheep]

Yeah definitely. And I think some people might need a little help in terms of grip or modifying their swing path more. Assuming someone has a good swing path, yet still throws, say, 4 degrees of nose up - and it's not intentional. I think that's when they might want to look at grip.

And I think that's where Neil's testing comes in handy. I think eventually we should look for maybe a list of most effective to least effective nose down techniques, and have people try them out AS NEEDED once they get their swing path correct.

I know for myself I have a bad swing path. I've been working on it, but I've also received input from others that a) my grip wasn't tight enough, b) therefore fingers are open straight as the disc releases. I've also been told to c) curl the wrist a touch more. Those things not being done correctly apparently makes worse the issues I have with my swoop. So it means the disc behaves worse with the swoop, because of my grip.

So at this point the checkbox of fixing swing plane is the first thing to check off. But I do think it's worth building a skill to further bring the nose down - maybe just for the shots that need it, like distance anhyzer lines - or whatever.

I don't have to have students do anything crazy.
I fix their grip, slow them down and tell them to swing easy.
But then, I'm working with people in person on a regular basis teaching this. So, I guess I don't know much. haha

It's funny how they go from hard herky jerky throws to easy smooth further throws with a grip change.

Grip has not been taught correctly like ever on youtube or in clinics.

And the better part about the grip change stuff is that its instant results without spending hours trying to correct weird form issues. After that change, its so much easier to correct a few swooping or other weird form issues, cause with them not throwing air bounces anymore or whatever other weird thing, you can see the results easier to make proper corrections, and they are seeing actual results in their throw and control. All from learning to grip the disc for their swing and their body.

Neil's approach to gathering data is really cool for some of this stuff. We get some interesting feedback from the things he's trying. The unfortunate part is... it's one party doing it, and that's to small of a data set to really get good overall data. And we have no control to calculate from as well. The unfortunate issue of any sort of movements like we are making is what we "think" we are doing and what were actually doing is insanely different. Thats why camera's will always really be the best choice for seeing whats actually happening, not something like tech disc. Tech disc is great though. I'm seeing more benefits from it. But it still seems a bit like were chasing data with it also.
So when we think were doing this and doing that while testing, since its only 1 subject, it's sketchy data. He might "think" he did x when it happened, but when were not actually getting multiple sources and .. yada yada. basic experiment stuff.
A lot of this key turn thing, I think it would be fun with the high speed because I'ma bet that what's actually happening is not what you think is happening.

Like the forehand lessons I was giving the other day. Guy was annie chopping it. like "we gotta fix this."
I told him I wanted him to throw on this extreeme hyzer angle, like really really low. I showed him and he said "okay"
Guess where his arm threw at? Yeah, wasn't at that extreeme hyzer angle. Wasn't anywhere close. He didn't even make it to fully horizontal. What you "think" your doing vs what your actually doing a lot of times is so tricky. our brains just do weird stuff. So we can be telling it "do this" and its not.

But it's just like the whole idea of going to extreems to dial it back. And this technique for someone who just wants to flip their wrist under for no reason is a good tool. But most people are setting their body/swing up to pronate in the swing, because the wrist wants to move, and the only way it can move is to pronate.

I've explained a lot of it, but it just seems like everyone wants to argue for the sake of arguing.. Like there is something to prove. uhh. no. not really.

I mean. People pay me to teach them and I see success in my methods.
People pay sidewinder to teach them and they see success in his methods.
We've even had stokley in here on video and people been paying that nutter for years and i know people who've gotten lessons from him personally and improved. he lived here for a whole winter just 20 mins away from me at oggwood.

 

[Sheep]

One thing I wanted to spell out more, not as a reply to anyone in particular, but it seems to me the higher the launch angle, the more useful negative nose angles are. Maybe that's a rule of thumb, with likely a list of exceptions I'm just unaware of.

Keep in mind I'm not a disc golf coach, and I don't want to remotely put off the impression I am, or that I think I am. I consider myself a disc golf cheerleader. I'm cheering the rest of you on to figure these things out.

You generally have great insights nick. cause you just sitting in the corner watching and speak up when you got something you've observed to say. I suck at that. I like to talk.

But yes.

People dont think about the flight as a break down.
You should be throwing and planning the apex of the flight. I'm sure the pro's do this. I know paul does. He's said it a video. probably one of the best tips video's ever done.

Apex is the point where the disc finishes. We need to throw the disc in a fashion so that when it hits apex it does what we need it to do. Nose down at apex helps discs push forwards. If youre even 1 degree nose up, that disc is gonna stall.

And its kind of weird because we gotta look at many other factors when you get to this whole scenario because the speed its held to this point is important for the finish. The design of the wing.

Because were essentially flying a plane from powered flight to glide flight. And this is where people get into fights about throwing high speed discs dont understand.

 

[CoachChris]

…..But..there is this weird assumption making the rounds that you benefit from more nose down, and...I just dont buy it

The benefit from working on the nose is being 'able' to adjust the nose as needed. It can drastically change the disc flight but might not be important enough for many to learn.

At 55-60 mph, starting with zero nose angle, (as the disc was designed to fly), as the nose angle increases, I tend to see about 10' per degree less in distance and 4'-7' per degree more stability (hooks up earlier) with same disc same hyzer/anhyzer release angle (with more variance the higher the disc speed). (This is just an experienced guess at this point but I'll be doing some controlled experiments later this summer, and will report back)

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Don't you think that the rest of your body position and timing/sequence matter on the nose angle as much or maybe more than the action of pronation or supination?
View attachment 343377

You could be throwing with the form that has the most potential to be nose down without any turn the key, but if you pronate at the last moment, all of that nose down from the rest of the form can be turned into nose up.

Similarly, with the windmill throw, when I tried pendulum swing a few times in one session, I was consistently +5 ish nose angle when trying a normal maintained wrist position but with turn the key I can flip that into -18 nose but the pendulum swing helps you turn the key harder.

So in this sense, the wrist rotation is the MOST important thing because it has the final say and the largest magnitude of affect across the shortest amount of time.

But I still agree that people should generally prioritize the rest of the form coupled with maintaining a good wrist position before adding in additional wrist dynamics. I've never said that turning the key is the first thing people with form issues should do to get the nose down. But I do believe for people with good control of their mechanics and a good foundation could pretty quickly repeat the general findings of the turn the key mechanic resulting in more nose down potential.

If I knew how to correct my other form issues, I would be prioritizing that but the gap between reading about them and how to actually implement the change is often the bottleneck.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

For me, this compares to Squish the Bug. You CAN do that if it makes you feel good, and 1/10 times you nail the timing, provided your footwork sucks, and you can't brace properly. If your footwork is good, squishing the bug will only result in over-rotating.

Turning the key is the foot twist. It's unnecessary and only adds more moving parts to the throw. If your posture is good and arm works appropriately, turning the key will only result in a wormburner.

GG has good posture and his arm works appropriately and he turns the key and it doesn't result in a wormburner?

 

[Jaani]

GG has good posture and his arm works appropriately and he turns the key and it doesn't result in a wormburner?

Or maybe he doesn't "turn the key" but the wrist works exactly like it should. This is, I repeat, exactly the same as squish the bug. You think it's intentional because you see it happen, and because you see it happen, you think you have to focus on doing it.

I'm sorry man, but I don't buy it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

But if you grip the disc wrong and try and pour coffee to hard, you'll pronate and pop the nose up.

The more you try and pour the coffee to get the nose down, the worse it's going to get because you start loosing looseness in your joints and muscles.

Did you expect the grip change in throw 3 to have that result?

Separately, would you refer to this as a grip issue: say you inspect someone's grip and it looks good to you initially, but then they throw and can't control their wrist, it flops around and ends up pronating.

In one sense, it's a grip issue, but in another sense, it's just an issue of learning to control the wrist and not modifying how the disc is gripped (you already saw the grip looked good). I'm rarely sure when people talk about grip issues if they are including all of this under the umbrella of 'grip'.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Or maybe he doesn't "turn the key" but the wrist works exactly like it should. This is, I repeat, exactly the same as squish the bug. You think it's intentional because you see it happen, and because you see it happen, you think you have to focus on doing it.

I'm sorry man, but I don't buy it.

I mean, if you compare it to other pros who also have the rest of their form at a pro level, it seems that GG is pretty clearly doing more active wrist rotation.

For example, Gavin Babcock is not actively supinating his wrist as much as GG, partly because he starts already supinated earlier, but maintaining supination and actively supinating with momentum are not identical. Do you dispute that?

At 14:00

 

[Jaani]

I'm really not interested in debating this topic. I have stated everything I have on this topic, but I can repeat: if your grip and posture are in check, all necessary moves are done regarding the nose angle. Then it should be a smooth flowing move, nothing else needed.

Keep on tech-discing and have fun with it!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I'm really not interested in debating this topic. I have stated everything I have on this topic, but I can repeat: if your grip and posture are in check, all necessary moves are done regarding the nose angle. Then it should be a smooth flowing move, nothing else needed.

Keep on tech-discing and have fun with it!

you keep getting back into it, but you don't wanna get into it? Lol, all good. I agree it should be smooth flowing.

 

[Sheep]

The benefit from working on the nose is being 'able' to adjust the nose as needed. It can drastically change the disc flight but might not be important enough for many to learn.

At 55-60 mph, starting with zero nose angle, (as the disc was designed to fly), as the nose angle increases, I tend to see about 10' per degree less in distance and 4'-7' per degree more stability (hooks up earlier) with same disc same hyzer/anhyzer release angle (with more variance the higher the disc speed). (This is just an experienced guess at this point but I'll be doing some controlled experiments later this summer, and will report back)

Nose to loss is disc speed dependant, but if you can't get the disc nose neutral at least, you might be throwing 450 power and only seeing 350. just from maybe 1 or 2 degree's.

I think in some of the slower discs the number loss isn't as high, but for drivers, looking at least 30-50 feet per nose degree angle up.

But diminishing returns.

I know air bouncers who throw 450. how? no clue. They make fun of me because I don't throw as far. Cool. They are gassed by 9 holes. I'm just cherry for 2 rounds. hahaha.

 

[Sheep]

you keep getting back into it, but you don't wanna get into it? Lol, all good. I agree it should be smooth flowing.

Why would he continue to try and talk when you are unable to articulate an argument of any sorts or explain things other than "my tech disc says"?

It's why I'm not responding much. You're interest in learning more on the topic isn't there, just yelling about that it works and everyone is doing it when 2 very experienced coaches and one experienced coach is telling you otherwise.

Looking at 30+ years of experience between Sidewinder and Jaani compared to my 6 years of teaching. And were trying to have a discussion with someone who started playing last October who's not interested in listening.

 

[Kennets]

I mean, if you compare it to other pros who also have the rest of their form at a pro level, it seems that GG is pretty clearly doing more active wrist rotation.

For example, Gavin Babcock is not actively supinating his wrist as much as GG, partly because he starts already supinated earlier, but maintaining supination and actively supinating with momentum are not identical. Do you dispute that?

At 14:00

Please tell me where GG use "active wrist rotation". Im getting so lost with English terms at times, I'm merely trying to understand your point and not disputing anything. Yet.. lol

 

[Kennets]

I guess people are afraid to guess the nose angles in public and be accused of making shit up about nose angle , or hopefully people are just out having fun on the weekend, lol.

So, I'll just release the reveal early:

I forgot about you posting that video.

But, that wasn't really my request buddy. I didn't ask for a 10 throws nose angle guessing competition, I asked for a side by side video of you throwing the same "exact" throw, where you out emphasis on "turn the key" in one of the throws. More to let you show that in your opinion, its a viable thing (you might already have done that in your channel?).

For me, I do think that an active conscious movement of the wrist in the "hit sequence" could be a recipe for disaster for many people struggling with nose angle. I would imagine that many people would tense up in the wrist/forearm and that could lead to the wrist not working as a hinge and perhaps put strain somewhere. But that's just my opinion and I'm open to change my view.

When (pro) people supinate or get ulnar deviation, during their power pocket and "out", do you believe is a conscious movement (by muscle memory or not) or do you believe its a byproduct of good mechanics?

Would there be any clear advantage for people with good mechanics, throwing let says, 0 degrees nose angle to actively "turn the key" to get a -5 nose angle? At what point does nose angle have diminishing return in turns of distance and flight?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Why would he continue to try and talk when you are unable to articulate an argument of any sorts or explain things other than "my tech disc says"?

I literally brought up a point that's likely something he hasn't had to address much before. That should be an interesting opportunity for a coach to think about if the coach or teacher to consider.

The point was about how the same amount of supination at the hit can have two different impacts if one of them was maintained supination for longer vs the other being actively supinating up to the hit. The active supination has supination-momentum coming into the hit and that momentum has an impact that is missing from the other case of maintained supination.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Please tell me where GG use "active wrist rotation". Im getting so lost with English terms at times, I'm merely trying to understand your point and not disputing anything. Yet.. lol

You can see it in the thumbnail:

Look at the right side how the top flight plate of the disc is facing his chest. If he continued to throw here without supinating his wrist, he would be throwing into the bottom flight plate like pros do in practice throws on the tee. Compare that to other players who already have the disc more perpendicular to their chest at this part of the power pocket, they do not need to actively supinate their wrist from there, they just maintain the supination that is already present. I probably should have just stuck with my usual terminology of dynamic and static instead of using active and maintain but people also get confused about dynamic and static terms so I was trying to use more common words.

You'll even see the disc bend sometimes from so much rapid supination, the back of the disc bends down.

Here's a good view of Kyle Klein at 1:35


Notice again the disc when it's next to his left chest, if he didn't supinate as the elbow swings open he would be swinging the bottom flight plate forward.

 

[Kennets]

You can see it in the thumbnail:
View attachment 343392
Look at the right side how the top flight plate of the disc is facing his chest. If he continued to throw here without supinating his wrist, he would be throwing into the bottom flight plate like pros do in practice throws on the tee. Compare that to other players who already have the disc more perpendicular to their chest at this part of the power pocket, they do not need to actively supinate their wrist from there, they just maintain the supination that is already present.

You'll even see the disc bend sometimes from so much rapid supination, the back of the disc bends down.

Here's a good view of Kyle Klein at 1:35


Notice again the disc when it's next to his left chest, if he didn't supinate as the elbow swings open he would be swinging the bottom flight plate forward.

Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it!

Would you believe that pros who "briefcase" it, supinate as an active thing or would you believe it's a "natural" way for the wrist/forearm to react when the elbow unravels? I would think the latter, but then again, I'm open for debate.

My body is killing me these days, otherwise I would've been on the way to the field to test it out