Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Brychanus]

If you focus on the release point/position you want, I think you can get there either way. I think the focus should be on hitting the release position you want rather than focusing on rolling the wrist one way or the other.

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]Eventually, the real answer for me was just...[/COLOR]

View attachment 342164

Both of these were recently important to me and I keep learning new things from them.

I've seen people respond rapidly and convincingly to interacting with TD, and other people who get trapped chasing the data and stuck in a bad motion attractor state.

Anecdote/interesting on my N=1 case: usually things like TD seem to be more instrumental for me once I have the "intent" part established. Without the intent part it seems more like measurements searching for goals. But I've always had that problem including in other motor learning contexts, so it's possible that it's a "me" level variable, right? Once I started to find a version of that for DG BH (and a new one recently) other learning improved again.

Btw I don't really find myself trying to "argue" anything here because everyone has a point, just sharing some anecdotes from a long the way. So like @itlnstln said elsewhere "everyone should keep doing what you're doing" (and my hope is we continue to talk about it and exchange data and viewpoints rather than shut down). Also, if you go work with Chris let us know how it goes!

 

[itlnstln]

Come to San Diego with your 70 mph and I'll get you to 500+.

I wish I had 70 MPH; I'm probably closer to 60 - I just made those numbers up for the example

That said, I would totally take you up on that offer; I can totally get to 500'. Also, I LOVE San Diego. It's my favorite beer city.

Unfortunately, I'm not playing any disc golf for awhile

 

[itlnstln]

Anecdote/interesting on my N=1 case: usually things like TD seem to be more instrumental for me once I have the "intent" part established. Without the intent part it seems more like measurements searching for goals. But I've always had that problem including in other motor learning contexts, so it's possible that it's a "me" level variable, right? Once I started to find a version of that for DG BH (and a new one recently) other learning improved again.

I heard this quote the other day, and I think it's good to keep in mind:

"Some individuals use statistics as a drunk man uses lamp-posts — for support rather than for illumination."

A different form of what @Brychanus describes is P-Hacking. In P-Hacking, you're trying a bunch of stuff, then looking for a stat that shows that you did something. The problem is similar where you don't have an intent* and you're using changes in data to back into the intent. Either way, starting with an intent will allow you leverage data to "illuminate" aspects of progress vs. the other way around.

(*A more nefarious version of this is that you do have an intent, and your experiment fails, then you go chasing data to show you did something positive unrelated to the intent)

 

[BenjiHeywood]

There's a cool graph of p-hacking in Jordan Ellenberg's "How not to be wrong". And I never miss an opportunity to recommend that book. A totally brilliant book about maths for the intelligent layman (much better than it sounds from that description!).

 

[Kennets]

"science is the study of what's happening, it's not necessarily the way to do it"



@ 5 minute mark and onwards.

 

[itlnstln]

"science is the study of what's happening, it's not necessarily the way to do it"



@ 5 minute mark and onwards.

That part of the discussion is rears its head in all kinds of discussions here and other places.

For myself, I've gotten lost in form minutiae based in this very issue of looking at the discrete observations of form and trying to translate those observations to "how you do it." A good example for me was forehands. For whatever reason, I had not really thrown forehands for a long period of time. I started working on it a couple of years ago and got lost in all kinds of "elbow first," "push the disc," etc. One day, I finally stepped back and told myself to throw it like a baseball...

I'm a deadly thumber thrower (more accuracy than distance, per se, but either way). Basically, I just try to throw the disc like a baseball with the only difference being that the wrist snap at the end is a little more like throwing an axe than ball. My weird "aha" moment was realizing that the forehand was the exact same motion from a different arm slot. I grabbed the most over stable disc I had at the time and threw a forehand from ~3/4 arm slot and smashed it, so I knew I was on the right track. If I were to look at a video of those throws, they would have all the characteristics of "elbow first," "push the disc," etc., but I discarded that to focus on the athletic movement and all that other stuff just "shows up."

 

[OverthrowJosh]

GG pronating here, not supinating.
View attachment 341756

Just circling back around here and noticed something pretty interesting… it's nose up.

 

[Faded]

Just circling back around here and noticed something pretty interesting… it's nose up.

Maybe. Depends on it's trajectory, no?

 

[CoachChris]

Just circling back around here and noticed something pretty interesting… it's nose up.

The image is deceptively distance skewed. (likely very long lens) At this point in GG's throw, the disc is likely +/-10' from his hand. At release GG's shoulders are approximately 15° open and his plant foot is still planted.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Maybe. Depends on its trajectory, no?

correct. It was a bit tongue in cheek because if it is based on trajectory, and if you can't assume trajectory from this picture, then you logically wouldn't be able to say it was nose up OR nose down.

But if we're playing the one picture game my vote is it is nose up on a more or less level trajectory.

 

[Casey 1988]

Exactly this. I, OTOH, have pretty good form and throw decently far and accurate for my age, but play terribly competitively.

I think there was something about why pros don't clean up their putting form a few days ago. If I was as effective as Ohn Scoggins with her wobbly-ass putt; I wouldn't give a shit. The goal is to get the disc in the basket. If Ohn thought that flattening out her putt would improve that, she would have done it.

Speaking as a player who has 100% redone my put I agree and I needed a redo 2 times. One I blame my disc where Soft X Putt'r is a not very good disc as mold would in 2000s Soft X become concave puddle top wih no glide and other straddle I was using a 166 gram when new Rubber Putter where disc was worn in a bit. Once I switched to a Magnet Pro-D, Later Jawbreaker, and even later 2 Proline Titanic discs as well as Jawbreaker I sort of used same slightly odd version of a pushing spin put doing both about 50/50 from 5 feet o max 10--12 maybe 15 feet away as I am push only I have now, only I used more my feet in straight line. Now in same putting style I have feet roughly shoulder apart and added a push adding kick from around 17-20 feet on back until I have maxed out back kick at 33--35 feet and switch discs to a 175 gram Star Shark or a when new in 2005 winter, 166 gram #2 Putter in Proline starting over on back kick and when I have maxed out on back leg kick around 40--45 feet I am doing an approach shot.

 

[Sheep]

The insults in this thread were marvelous and uncalled for. Not just at me, but in general.

But alas, I was the one muted from the thread, cause omg Sheep is such a big meanie weenie. /me makes wank motion.


Socradeez, someone who is very critical of me and things I say, jumping in and saying his peace on here and then watching people not understand a single thing he said was funny as well.
Because the whole idea behind this thread is the lack of understanding about what turn the key does/is.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but .. though.. people seem to be putting words in my mouth with their emotional defense of my replies.

I'm saying it doesn't work like you think it does. Sidewinder is saying, it doesn't work like you think it does.

It's just a stupid argument at this point because its just insults about how "our info is correct cause we got tech disc and you all are a bunch of idiots, cause we got tech discs."

Then sidewinder comes in and is like "oooh ho, i got a tech disc also." and... everyone is just ignoring that.

I got a high speed camera. not a tech disc. so. *shrugs*

Data from a sensor is cool, but visually seeing what you're actually doing is even better. Because what we "think" were doing isn't what were always doing. Turn the key, as I stated in my video, is a que to get you in alignment, not to force the nose down.

Lets roll in and look at some scott content here. I'm not the biggest scott fan on his teaching techniques, but there are a few really really important things to remember here.
Scott throws far, scott has thrown far for years, scott has held world distance record, scott has been teaching as long or longer than any of us bickering with each other here. Scott, at like 58 years old or whatever he is now, is still throwing further than ANYONE in this forum.

This video, as dumb as I thought it was at the time, is what helped me fully understand how the whole nose concept works.
I would suggest watching the whole thing, but were gonna bump in some clips.
Cause.. Ya know, scott dont know what he's doing.





Dude who holds world distance record at one point is specifically telling you not to roll your wrist around. but... I digress.



This stupid concept he teaches here is actually what helped me understand all of the picture. Grip/angles/hinges and some other stuff. it finally clicked. Was nothing about snap like he's using it for. I wasn't even trying to do this drill because I thought it was dumb, I was throwing rollers. And this concept he's showing in this video made complete sense.

But here's the thing. Ya'll can keep turning keys and doing whatever you need to do to get people to throw better. That's the whole idea.

The part that is funny is ... my complaint wasn't necessarily the idea, it was that everyone teaching it doesn't understand what they are teaching, just that it works for them.

But the only way flipping the disc forcefully by turning the key works is if pete's idea that its putting the right wobble into the disc to drive the nose down.
Because otherwise, rolling your wrist over like that actually makes the nose pop straight up right away.
Because the nose of the disc isn't up by your pointer finger.

But, far as I know, only Pete and I are the ones saying that.
I've posted high speed footage proving it, but.. were gonna keep telling people they not pouring the tea hard enough or something.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I look at pronating and supinating the wrist during the swing, the same way I look at externally and internally rotating the arm: Don't do it, if at all possible. If you have to adjust the angle of the wrist or arm, it should be in order to make sure the disc remains on-plane. I get why some people "suitcase" the disc in the early part of the swing, and might use cues like "turn the key" or "pour the coffee" but attempts to put "English" on a disc during a drive will decrease distance of the disc, and the accuracy of the flight. Though touch throws might benefit from such things to create a nose up throw or a specific line.

View attachment Backhand Training 6-5-2024 DGCR.mp4
Here's an example of a swooping swing path. I have the disc oriented correctly in my hand, but my grip isn't strong enough to completely immobilize the disc. So because the first part of the swing is high, the middle part is low, the part of the disc that's farthest away from my hand flops down mid-swing, and when released, the wobble is significant. The putter flips up to flat, flies 200' dead straight, but that wobble is what flipped the disc up in the first place.

My intent was a slight hyzer. What I got was a flat throw that followed the entire length of the "runway" I'm practicing on.

 

[Sheep]

 

[timothy42b]

But the only way flipping the disc forcefully by turning the key works is if pete's idea that its putting the right wobble into the disc to drive the nose down.
Because otherwise, rolling your wrist over like that actually makes the nose pop straight up right away.

Because the nose of the disc isn't up by your pointer finger.

The bold is my addition. Once the disc leaves the grip I know where the nose is. Before that, not so much, because during release it is in motion relative to the pointer finger. And the position of pointer finger at final separation varies and is hard to see. I suspect this has a lot to do with the disagreement over nose down.

 

[sidewinder22]

This video, as dumb as I thought it was at the time, is what helped me fully understand how the whole nose concept works.
I would suggest watching the whole thing, but were gonna bump in some clips.
Cause.. Ya know, scott dont know what he's doing.

Dude who holds world distance record at one point is specifically telling you not to roll your wrist around. but... I digress.

Scott says to not swivel at all in the followthru but he does. I think it helps protect the arm, giving it more space to safely decelerate.

 

[itlnstln]

Scott says to not swivel at all in the followthru but he does. I think it helps protect the arm, giving it more space to safely decelerate.
View attachment 343162

I think it's hard not to pronate in the follow through. I certainly get his point, though, on keeping the whip "true" through the hit. I'm not sure I would have thought about the acceleration aspect (or lack thereof) vis-a-vis pronation if you take his point at face value (it seems plausible to me)

I'd think if you didn't pronate, you'd be at greater risk of slamming the elbow open

 

[sidewinder22]

View attachment 342966
Here's an example of a swooping swing path. I have the disc oriented correctly in my hand, but my grip isn't strong enough to completely immobilize the disc. So because the first part of the swing is high, the middle part is low, the part of the disc that's farthest away from my hand flops down mid-swing, and when released, the wobble is significant. The putter flips up to flat, flies 200' dead straight, but that wobble is what flipped the disc up in the first place.

My intent was a slight hyzer. What I got was a flat throw that followed the entire length of the "runway" I'm practicing on.

Do you have more of this video ie full backswing and followthru?

 

[Nick Carroll]

Do you have more of this video ie full backswing and followthru?

Here's the full throw at 50% speed and 25% speed. I have footage of the side view of this throw. I can upload that tomorrow if needed, and I can host it as an unlisted video on YouTube if that'll make it easier.
View attachment Backhand Training 6-5-2024 Disc Nation.mp4

 

[Sheep]

I think it's hard not to pronate in the follow through. I certainly get his point, though, on keeping the whip "true" through the hit. I'm not sure I would have thought about the acceleration aspect (or lack thereof) vis-a-vis pronation if you take his point at face value (it seems plausible to me)

I'd think if you didn't pronate, you'd be at greater risk of slamming the elbow open

The body will want to naturally pronate when you swing. keeping the wrist pushed over and on plane is really hard.

When people are trying to "turn the key" they are more than likely anti pronating, not supinating.

Which was the point of my explanation, youre not doing some magic thing to flip the disc around and make it nose down. You're most likely just getting your wrist/hand aligned with the shot allowing the wrist to move in a fashion that puts the nose down vs you rolling it under.


Whatever you do before the disc leaves your hand is only a third of the piece of that puzzle. There is your hand position at the hit and what your hand does after.
so if turn the key helps you get your wrist aligned, then cool. But call it what it is sorta thing.

A lot of nose down stuff is grip dependent, also dependent on your flexibility throughout the shot. Where you throw from in the pocket, from above the nips, belly button. All that stuff matters.

So to just roll in and be like "Yeah, turn the key, throw nose down" is... stupid.

It will get you them youtube views though.

Want youtube views "Throw 50 feet further with this technique"
Instant views.

I should do one and just talk about my prairie dogs for 15 minutes.