Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[disc-golf-neil]

First grip is what gave me a better nose angle. I usually grip with a modified power grip.. I've never really settled on a grip, since everything feels incorrect for me. I can't get a solid tuck with the index finger and I wonder if that makes it weaker as a pivot point?

yeah tough to get a full view without video but my index finger is similar in that it's only the last digit of the finger curling around so it feels weak for most people but from climbing I'm used to having to developing grip strength even when you only have a fraction of the finger pad on the hold so a 'full pad' grip is considered good once you're used to dealing with 'half pad' or worse.

Also, when the thumb is more aligned on top of the last horizontal line on the index finger, thumb pressure can help secure the index finger's grip.

And to clarify my point about thumb position and increased risk of pronation, here's a vid to clarify hopefully:

 

[CoachChris]

Food for thought - How do the Pros adjust their nose angles with different starting angles, (briefcase, flat, reverse briefcase, etc.), and different reach back, power pocket and arm release angles? Is it grip, forearm pronation/supination and/or internal/external shoulder rotation?

It is very clear that GG, from a briefcase starting position, is going to have to rotate his arm, hand and disc in order to have a flat release. So I went in to my mocap software and measured the change in forearm rotation and shoulder rotation of briefcase hangers, RIcky and GG, and generally flatter throwers, Calvin and Chris Dickerson. Here is a very small sample size of unscientific data (I don't know their specific grips and I don't know their exact nose angles for the throws analyzed.). This is taking the relative positions of each joint center at max reach back (RB), deepest power pocket (PP) and release. Hard for many to understand, but I think many of us nerds on this forum may be able to grasp the following numbers. PP to release is relevant to this thread.

Ricky - From max RB to his deepest PP, 6° of supination and 17° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 10° of supination, and 23° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 33°.

GG - From max RB to his deepest PP, 10° of pronation and 22° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 19° of supination and 27° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 46°.

Calvin - From max RB to his deepest PP, 13° of supination and 28° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 3° of pronation and 15° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 12°.

CDick - From max RB to his deepest PP, he has 7° of supination and 33° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 16.5° of pronation, and 28° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 11.5°.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone. I hope to mocap some other pros later this year and I will combine with TechDisc and try to get better data.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Food for thought - How do the Pros adjust their nose angles with different starting angles, (briefcase, flat, reverse briefcase, etc.), and different reach back, power pocket and arm release angles? Is it grip, forearm pronation/supination and/or internal/external shoulder rotation?

It is very clear that GG, from a briefcase starting position, is going to have to rotate his arm, hand and disc in order to have a flat release. So I went in to my mocap software and measured the change in forearm rotation and shoulder rotation of briefcase hangers, RIcky and GG, and generally flatter throwers, Calvin and Chris Dickerson. Here is a very small sample size of unscientific data (I don't know their specific grips and I don't know their exact nose angles for the throws analyzed.). This is taking the relative positions of each joint center at max reach back (RB), deepest power pocket (PP) and release. Hard for many to understand, but I think many of us nerds on this forum may be able to grasp the following numbers. PP to release is relevant to this thread.

Ricky - From max RB to his deepest PP, 6° of supination and 17° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 10° of supination, and 23° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 33°.

GG - From max RB to his deepest PP, 10° of pronation and 22° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 19° of supination and 27° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 46°.

Calvin - From max RB to his deepest PP, 13° of supination and 28° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 3° of pronation and 15° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 12°.

CDick - From max RB to his deepest PP, he has 7° of supination and 33° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 16.5° of pronation, and 28° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 11.5°.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone. I hope to mocap some other pros later this year and I will combine with TechDisc and try to get better data.

Super cool, thanks for sharing. Can't wait for this kind of data to be synthesized with their tech disc stats.

 

[sidewinder22]

yeah tough to get a full view without video but my index finger is similar in that it's only the last digit of the finger curling around so it feels weak for most people but from climbing I'm used to having to developing grip strength even when you only have a fraction of the finger pad on the hold so a 'full pad' grip is considered good once you're used to dealing with 'half pad' or worse.

Also, when the thumb is more aligned on top of the last horizontal line on the index finger, thumb pressure can help secure the index finger's grip.

And to clarify my point about thumb position and increased risk of pronation, here's a vid to clarify hopefully:

"Risk" sounds like the language of a Sith.

It's shaping different shots.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"Risk" sounds like the language of a Sith.

It's shaping different shots.

Hah, yeah definitely can be intentionally used but for many people I think they don't realize they are increasing the chance of nose up when hearing advice like "use thumb pressure" but don't know how it affects them based on their thumb position, so it seems like a risk to me in that sense.

But you can throw nose down with the thumb deep in the flight plate just fine if you don't pronate either be less thumb pressure or just not giving in to pronating despite the thumb pressure, or by turning the key.

 

[Sheep]

Hah, yeah definitely can be intentionally used but for many people I think they don't realize they are increasing the chance of nose up when hearing advice like "use thumb pressure" but don't know how it affects them based on their thumb position, so it seems like a risk to me in that sense.

But you can throw nose down with the thumb deep in the flight plate just fine if you don't pronate either be less thumb pressure or just not giving in to pronating despite the thumb pressure, or by turning the key.

Disc golfed for less than a year, and you really have what ground to stand on to make a statement like that?

 

[isamoor]

I greatly appreciated the small video showing the impact of thumb pressure is very dependent on where the thumb is. Although obvious in retrospect, it didn't occur to me on my own. Thaks Neil!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Disc golfed for less than a year, and you really have what ground to stand on to make a statement like that?

You seem to have a hard time understanding that people learn at different rates since you keep bringing up how long I've been playing. I've ran into many people who've played for 3+ years or 5+ years who barley know anything other than common lore because they just play and don't actively research, practice to really integrate new knowledge. So time played is not a useful metric on it's own, you should know that.

I don't know if you remember, but I was repeatedly accused of overthinking things early on, but it's amazing how much you can get done when you play almost daily for 9 months straight and think way more than most people that entire time (since they believe it's thinking too much), in addition to constantly testing things out instead of tunnel visioning the first thing that works.

For the thumb position/pressure, it's pretty obvious if you pay attention to how the thumb pressure feels in different positions, then all you need is some logic. Plus, I can't make shit up for long because I have a tech disc which instantly shows me when something doesn't do what I thought it would do. I think you're afraid to get one because of how it will shake up your understanding.

You don't need to focus on thumb pressure to pronate, but it's much easier to pronate a gripped disc during a throw with thumb pressure, and even easier again when the thumb is deeper into the flight plate because it provides more leverage in the direction of pronation.

Of course there's still lot's of stuff I haven't learned yet, known and unknown.

 

[Jaani]

Promised not to comment... But here goes.

I have coached one on one a few hundred people. Played the game for 24 years.

I have never fixed anyones nose angle by telling them to Turn the key. But you know what has worked? Every, single, time.

By telling them to grip properly.

But do continue. This is easily the funniest thread in a loooooong time.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Promised not to comment... But here goes.

I have coached one on one a few hundred people. Played the game for 24 years.

I have never fixed anyones nose angle by telling them to Turn the key. But you know what has worked? Every, single, time.

By telling them to grip properly.

But do continue. This is easily the funniest thread in a loooooong time.

You are attacking a straw man. I haven't seen anyone say teaching / learning a good grip should be skipped in favor of turn the key. I agree a good grip should come first. I've thoroughly tested like 8 different BH grips with the tech disc--I take grip very seriously and find it fascinating.

This is "turn the key derangement syndrome". People hate it so much and don't want it to be a useful technique (at any point???) so they start attacking points that people aren't even making.

Which vid of yours do you show the grip you teach btw? I've prob seen it already but curious to double check it to see if it's the standard old faithful or a tweaked version of it or something else.

 

[Jaani]

Just set the disc deep into the palm, with more flesh on the plate. Grip it with the pinky and ring, or anyway more from the rear than the front.

It's not a straw man. You have just found your own "backleg discgolf", or The Method, which you want to make your own as something that is absolutely essential and "done by every pro".

All the while being a noob to the sport. Like an absolute beginner, in all senses.

Which I really endorse, by the way. Teaching is the fastest way to learn, after all. But the arrogance you display towards people with about 100 years more experience than you is mind blowing.

I used to symphatise with you and liked your videos, liked that you wanted to learn and study. Sorry man, now you're only cocky.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It's not a straw man. You have just found your own "backleg discgolf", or The Method, which you want to make your own as something that is absolutely essential and "done by every pro".

This is a total straw man, it's either in bad faith, or you failed to comprehend what I've been saying, or I've failed to explain it in a way that you can understand it. I think you are so focused on your distaste for turn the key that it is clouding your judgement.

I've never told people they just need to turn the key to fix their issues. I've repeatedly warned in writing here and in videos to prioritize fundamental form issues first. People keep ignoring this though for some reason because then they wouldn't have anything to be bothered about???

I do not even need turn the key to get below -4 nose down, I do not depend on it for anything. The only reason I defend it is because people keep irrationally hating on when they've placed it into a context that it doesn't belong.

If I walked into an MA4 tournament and said, "hey guys, I'm a noob" people would literally get mad and accuse me of sandbagging. Plus I've already won an MA3 and an NADGT MA2 like a typical noob with a 956 round rating. I don't want to brag but you guys love to keep trying to point out how much of a noob I am.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Can we focus on the ideas put forth in here and not discuss who or what Neil is or isn't? An idea can be helpful independent of the person proposing it.

It's shaping different shots.

MJ proposes changing thumb pressure on the flight plate to change nose angle with it.


Eagle will usually uses thumb pressure more towards the flight plate than the rim in relation to other pros. I would say here his thumb is on the flight plate already, slightly past the rim and his hyzer looks neutral to nose down to me, although it is hard to tell. Does his technique produce so much nose down that he can throw with thumb pressure towards the flight plate or what is going on here?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Can we focus on the ideas put forth in here and not discuss who or what Neil is or isn't? An idea can be helpful independent of the person proposing it.


MJ proposes changing thumb pressure on the flight plate to change nose angle with it.

View attachment 344163
Eagle will usually uses thumb pressure more towards the flight plate than the rim in relation to other pros. I would say here his thumb is on the flight plate already, slightly past the rim and his hyzer looks neutral to nose down to me, although it is hard to tell. Does his technique produce so much nose down that he can throw with thumb pressure towards the flight plate or what is going on here?

If you have good wrist control, you can easily resist the urge to pronate even with thumb pressure/position that is adding pressure in the pronation direction. However, most people who accidentally pronate, don't have good wrist control, hence me calling it a "risk" to have thumb pressure deep into the flight plate.

I think he also turns the key a bit here, you can see the disc comes into his left pec in a slight briefcase, so instead of simply "resisting" pronation, he is actively turning against it with supination. It's even easier to "resist" it if you totally overpower it in the other direction. There's very low chance of pronating if you are supinating, lol (unless you finish supinating early and then end up with some pressure to pronate in the interim)

We also don't know how much thumb pressure he really has, we can see evidence of thumb pressure with the imprint of the thumb, but it doesn't take much thumb pressure to indent the flight plate on certain plastics, and we know what he has said his thumb pressure is (~70% on drives IIRC). But he may very well start out with some amount of thumb pressure and then lessen it subconsciously during the throw if he isn't wanting to pronate. Lots of possibilities.

 

[Kennets]

If you have good wrist control, you can easily resist the urge to pronate even with thumb pressure/position that is adding pressure in the pronation direction. However, most people who accidentally pronate, don't have good wrist control, hence me calling it a "risk" to have thumb pressure deep into the flight plate.

I think he also turns the key a bit here, you can see the disc comes into his left pec in a slight briefcase, so instead of simply "resisting" pronation, he is actively turning against it with supination. It's even easier to "resist" it if you totally overpower it in the other direction.

We also don't know how much thumb pressure he really has, we can see evidence of thumb pressure with the imprint of the thumb, but it doesn't take much thumb pressure to indent the flight plate on certain plastics, and we know what he has said his thumb pressure is (~70% on drives IIRC). But he may very well start out with some amount of thumb pressure and then lessen it unconsciously during the throw if he isn't wanting to pronate.

Tell me what happens with your wrist/throw if your throw from a briefcase setup, without turning the key? Do you throw massive nose up? Got any data on that? Try that out with 70% power or more

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Tell me what happens with your wrist/throw if your throw from a briefcase setup, without turning the key? Do you throw massive nose up? Got any data on that? Try that out with 70% power or more

Yes it's massively nose up because you are staying pronated into the hit. Instead of pronating into the hit to end up pronated at the hit, you are just already pronated before, up to, and into the hit.

It's hard to commit to a throw like that though because you are throwing into the bottom flight plate like a practice swing and it doesn't come out of the hand easily because the disc and wrist rotation does not spin in the direction you are throwing, wrist extension goes upwards while the swing plane goes forwards, it's so misaligned if you are in a full briefcase that it's hard to release the disc (hence why it's perfect for a practice swing with low risk of slipping).

I'll do it if you're not convinced but would rather not, lol.

It works in putting too, this vid shows a good view of how the nose angle is misaligned with the arm plane for nose up compared to a more aligned one but it's a bit more of a dynamic pronation instead of what you are asking for, but it's logical that if both end up with pronation at the hit they will both be nose up.

It's easier to throw with dynamic pronation because you can start out throwing a bit more normally and then progressively pronate which makes it a smoother transition and makes it hard to pronate so much that you can hardly release the disc because the pronation is being somewhat limited by already being committed to the hit. Unlike starting with full pronation where you are pronated too much but have to forcefully commit through that and wrist-extension flick upwards (back of hand faced upwards from pronation) to actually get the disc to spin out.

 

[Kennets]

@disc-golf-neil

Would you think, that you would have to force the pronation through the throw, to let it stay pronated?

Before my injury, I spend some time throwing from a briefcase setup and this might be muscle memory, but I rarely had any nose up issue (ish, im an amateur) and when i do a shadow swing, my wrist usually "turn the key" (goes into supination) on its own, a natural movement to prevent me from hurting my wrist/arm in general.

I've said my meaning on the subject before and I'll do it one last time: I think supination/turn the key is a byproduct of either muscle memory or the biomechanics of the arm/body/whatever (probably a mixture of both)

It's no secret that I'm more into a Jaani/SW/ kinda teaching.

I think people's pushback regarding your.. thoughts? Are justified. No need to get rude while doing so, but I think they're right. Adding a active component that needs to be timed in a span of what? 0.1 seconds? Sounds like something no one would benefit from. Newbie, intermediate or pro. But you might wanna add something that makes is easier to time?

Does your test yield results? Sure it does and please continue doing stuff, it might be food for thought for other lurkers in here

 

[RowingBoats]

What in the actual g** d*** f*** is this thread now lol?

 

[Brychanus]

A lot of people have to learn to practice manually combining discrete steps first before they can learn to perform things as a fluid sequence because they don't have the requisite muscle memory to jump straight to the one fluid motion. I've focused on this approach in multiple sports and it's helped me quickly build up to a complex 'one fluid motion'. What even is the alternative? Trying to just do everything as a single unit right away without even being able to perform simpler motions in isolation?

Just to summarize several fairly large and complicated literatures all at once, one of which is very close to my primary area of study:

In motor learning, both of these strategies can work (holistic/"Gestalt" vs. "isolationist"). Often you can observe that different people universally have responded to one strategy better than the other. I have benefitted from being open-minded to sampling both strategies myself, and it is interesting to wonder if there was a more optimal mix I could have applied or could in the future myself.

Sometimes it applies to different problems in the same person.

Modally, children usually respond faster to holistic and observational learning than adults. Adults tend to respond faster to sequential learning.

Skills that require well-integrated motions across the body (which most but not all actions are) tend to be more easily, faster, and deeply learned by children. Adults who have large and deep reservoirs of childhood motor learning tend to learn faster and more deeply as adults.

Helping adults "disengage the frontal lobes" and learn more like children sometimes works, but only in persons who can be coaxed to disengage the frontal lobes sufficiently during learning.

Strategic (intentional) learning is a more complex topic, and comes with both more upside but also more downside in adults, who are more likely to get stuck in learning ruts when their analytic assumptions are false but they persist without changing strategies, which is often (not always) hard to determine without experimenter (i.e., not the learner) manipulation.

Individuals are often (but not always) poor predictors of which strategy will work better for them in a given scenario or new skill.

Coaching, like cognitive therapy, is more effective when there is a good strategic and interpersonal match between a student and coach, but does not account for the majority of variance in outcomes across individuals or within individuals over time.

There is, of course, substantial individual variability in each dimension here and each of those I have not mentioned.

 

[Brychanus]

What in the actual g** d*** f*** is this thread now lol?

Clearly you meant "gee darn frak," which need not be censored

Some combination of analytic insight, personality, projection, and the usual high-quality DGCR BS you uniquely encounter here.

How's your Monday?