Banzai's Battle with Bracing

[banzai7]

I'm taking what HUB calls the "nuclear option", and rebuilding my form from scratch.

Around 6 years ago I was playing a lot, and got to the 350' plateau using the Beto drill, etc.
Then I moved overseas and stopped playing for 5 years, with only a few casual rounds on vacations back to the U.S.

Now I'm back into DG and trying to learn proper form for real. I plan to put in some serious field work this year, with the goal of breaking through the next plateau by next spring. I've been working on trying to brace properly against my front leg, and to get the timing right for my hips and shoulder swing. But I'm not getting it; my current form feels all wonky. I don't really know how far I'm throwing; this morning I overthrew a 300' hole by about 20' with a Teebird from a standstill, but it is super inconsistent and honestly feels like it's all over the place.

If anybody has any feedback, that'd be really helpful. I still feel like I'm not bracing properly, and my shoulder swing is too early, but it'd be great to get the experts' opinions.

 

[youdidwell]

Have you watched this video? It helped me understand things better.



Take my advice with a huge grain of salt since I don't really know much either. But it looks like you're just picking up and putting you heel back down instead of driving onto "crushing the can" style.

 

[banzai7]

Thanks. Yeah I've seen that video ... I think I've watched em all over he last 3 weeks. I can't remember everything in it though, so I'll have to watch it again. Was there something specific in it that clicked?

I've been drilling the "crush the can" and the herschyser in my kitchen in the evenings. My wife thinks I'm crazy. But maybe I'm practicing it wrong?

 

[slowplastic]

So it looks like you're leading with your butt, but not falling forwards...but it also looks like you're doing everything you can to maintain the balance rather than being in the positions that take care of it automatically.

Remember with bracing, you have one contact point on the ground...your instep of the foot. Everything needs to be behind that contact point if you draw a vertical line straight upwards, or else it leaks forwards. Every joint needs to be on top or behind the one below it. You can see in this picture that your knee is ahead of your ankle/instep/heel, which causes it to bend and leak forward, and the rest of your body continues forwards of that plant. This means you have to strain yourself to keep balance.

As well, to counteract your follow through around this imperfect brace it looks like your rear foot is directed to the left, rather than directly towards the target through your brace foot's heel (approximately). You can see your left toes are kind of angled outwards around your body, as well as your knee...they want to spin around you. The pros drive straight forwards, at the target, underneath their hip.

Try a bit of a wider stance with your plant foot out in front of your hip...even try more of a one-step throw so that your plant foot can land where it's most natural to stop your body weight. Just try to get "into" the instep of that foot.

 

[youdidwell]

Thanks. Yeah I've seen that video ... I think I've watched em all over he last 3 weeks. I can't remember everything in it though, so I'll have to watch it again. Was there something specific in it that clicked?

The chain reaction part of your heel moving down starting the disc forward. For whatever reason I never put that together before I watched that video. I realized I was stepping more with my toes more forward or parallel and just ending on my heel instead of slightly in and like driving over my toes onto my heel. Which even as I write that I don't even know if that's totally correct, but it feels right.

 

[banzai7]

Thanks slowplastic, this is super helpful.

So it looks like you're leading with your butt, but not falling forwards...but it also looks like you're doing everything you can to maintain the balance rather than being in the positions that take care of it automatically.

Is leading with your butt good? I thought that was the point of the Herschyser drill. And yes, I have a problem with falling forwards ... some throws feel more balanced than others.

You can see in this picture that your knee is ahead of your ankle/instep/heel, which causes it to bend and leak forward, and the rest of your body continues forwards of that plant. This means you have to strain yourself to keep balance.

I doesn't feel like much of a strain to keep balanced from a standstill position, but I'm sure with a runup it would be much worse.

You can see your left toes are kind of angled outwards around your body, as well as your knee...they want to spin around you. The pros drive straight forwards, at the target, underneath their hip.

I feel like I can see the momentum leaking out around my body when the leg whips around like that. I'll definitely try to see if I can be more linear with my weight shift.

Try a bit of a wider stance with your plant foot out in front of your hip...even try more of a one-step throw so that your plant foot can land where it's most natural to stop your body weight. Just try to get "into" the instep of that foot.

Thanks, I'll get back to the field tonight to try to implement this to see if it helps. I was noticing that my plant seemed close in the video. It doesn't feel that way, but I'll see how a wider plant feels. I can see how it might help with bracing.

 

[slowplastic]

Leading with your butt is good, but you also can't get your foot forward because of the wall so that's likely why it ends up right below your hip on the throws instead of in front of you.

I know it may not feel like you're "straining" to keep balanced...but you are definitely having to stop your knee from drifting further by stopping it with pressure from the front of your foot, or, directing that energy outwards so that it doesn't go through your bent plant leg. Both of these issues will be fixed (mostly) with a better brace. I know when I have a poor brace I feel like lots of my body weight ended up on my toes/ball of the foot, as my momentum leaked forward, rather than just getting transferred into that leg and the disc. It also results in worse throws for me, and sometimes throwing it into the ground.

I would really concentrate on that brace leg angle and getting into the instep/heel, and once that is feeling easier, really think about directing that back knee/leg towards the target behind/into your plant leg. Once your brace is working out, you should be able to direct the transfer in this direction and it should still result in a clean feeling motion without anything getting tangled up.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your feet and hips are just spinning out. Need to firm up your rear leg/knee in the backswing and keep forward pressure/torque on the forward swing. Your rear foot should be moving forward just over the ground. See part 1.

Your front hip is just spinning out without any resistance/ receiving your weight/force. See part 2:

 

[banzai7]

Thanks SW22, I'll study those videos and get back to the field. Stay tuned...

 

[banzai7]

The back and forth on that first video is hilarious. When he's talking about "clockwise turn" and screwing the right foot into the ground, does that apply to the rear foot in a DG swing? For RHBH it would counterclockwise and the left foot, but is it the same idea? Maybe it's less about turning and more about pushing against the instep?

Also he's talking about lifting the toes and feeling the weight partway into the heel, but that seems to conflict with the advice to get the back foot heel up off the ground. Where exactly should the weight be balanced over the rear foot on the backswing?

 

[sidewinder22]

The back and forth on that first video is hilarious. When he's talking about "clockwise turn" and screwing the right foot into the ground, does that apply to the rear foot in a DG swing? For RHBH it would counterclockwise and the left foot, but is it the same idea? Maybe it's less about turning and more about pushing against the instep?

Yes to all the above.

Also he's talking about lifting the toes and feeling the weight partway into the heel, but that seems to conflict with the advice to get the back foot heel up off the ground. Where exactly should the weight be balanced over the rear foot on the backswing?

Weight and balance are separate things. Your weight moves with the heels. Balance on the insteps(athletic).

 

[banzai7]

Experimenting with Bracing Concepts

Alright, I've spent the last few days working on stuff. I've had a couple of insights, thanks in large part to that weird Mike Maves "The Move" videos. It was the "screw your foot into the ground clockwise" description that really got me to feel how tight and solid a brace your hip can provide when you're on your instep. The same solid feeling happens in the backswing with the opposite leg. Now the main thing is figuring out how to throw using those positions.

So I went to the field for two straight days. I first just tried to replicate those positions, and actually throwing made things all out of whack. The next day I brought the video camera, and threw well over 100 throws with mids and putters. I decided to just try out a bunch of different bracing "concepts" and try to focus on implementing those concepts with each batch of 10 throws. The results were all over the map.

I'd love it if anyone could have a look at this video and tell me if any of these "concepts" are getting me on the right track. Here are some of the things I tried:

Wider Plant: Just my normal standstill throw with a wider plant foot. I ended up with my weight back struggling to get forward, with a weird shoulder angle. The throws were all nose up.

Instep Brace: I tried to really focus on pushing hard against my instep of the plant foot. Still felt like I was leaking power, but it felt stronger. Perhaps this would work with better timing?

Tight hips, Heel Pivot: Tried to mimic the "screwing in" thing to limit lower body rotational movement throughout the whole throw, but force a heel pivot. Felt all wrong, and very wooden/stiff. I know I need to work on a consistent heel pivot, but this didn't seem right.

Resist, Rise, Release, Roll This is the Maves slogan that I was focusing on while throwing ... particularly the "resist" and "rise" thing. I ended up getting onto my plant foot toe which is probably wrong, but this felt like a strong brace.

The Slapshot I played ice hockey when I was a kid, and I'm use a lefty stick. So I tried throwing mimicking my slapshot form. This felt very natural and powerful, but led to a bent-over stance, and everything was coming out with a lot of hyzer.

Baseball Swing This is me trying to mimic a lefty baseball swing. It led to a higher pull through line that didn't feel very powerful. I also had a more open plant and I was standing up much taller.

I also did a bunch of right pec throws, some 1-step throws focusing on being balanced, and finished off with a few X-step throws trying to stay balanced throughout. What I really want to know is if any of these attempts are approximating anything like proper bracing. Which one is the best? As you'll see, I'm not worried so much right now about the follow-through and the toe-drag, etc. Somehow that is happening -- I think it is that I'm trying not to lift my trail leg too high. Anyway, I know you're not supposed to do that, but I'm really just trying to get a feel for how to utilize my hips and brace against that front leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your stance/front side is too open in them all. Your best ones are the instep brace and RRR. Watch how you turn your front foot open, whereas Will below turns it closed at the plant and shifts his weight from behind him. Your wide stance and "balanced xstep" are not really balanced, you are leaning away too far over your rear leg out of posture. Your "heel pivot" is just a spin out as your balance is on your heel through the finish.

 

[banzai7]

AH HA! I'm planting my heel wrong! I've been looking at all this video of myself and I didn't even notice. The main problem I was having was that I could feel the brace/tightness in the right hip happening, but *way* too late in the throw. If you look at the "RRR&R" and the "Instep Brace" you can see that I'm hitting the brace and rising up, but only after I've already come through with the shoulders. This is why I kept mentioning that I thought I was having timing issues ... and why I kept thinking I was coming through too early with my shoulders. It turns out I just need to close up my plant foot -- crush the can toward the outside more. This will torque up my hip earlier in the pull so that I hit the brace and transfer the momentum up into my core *before* my shoulders swing through.

Also, this might explain why I'm hitting *way* right of my intended line -- like by 30 degrees or more.

I had been practicing the crush the can and herschyser drills, but I was doing them wrong. I didn't see the importance of why you gotta get that heel planted outside the toe. Actually, if you watch the "Right Pec" one, I think that one was a little more closed (still not enough), and you can see I hit the brace a little earlier. I might actually be jamming my pivot on that one, but I don't know.

 

[banzai7]

Actually, I think this might have been what Youdidwell was trying to say, when he wrote:

But it looks like you're just picking up and putting you heel back down instead of driving onto "crushing the can" style.

I didn't see what exactly he meant, but now I get it. Gotta get back to drilling, and then back to the field this weekend. Thanks everyone!

 

[sidewinder22]

Right, it's your weight/heel moving forward that crushes the can.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's exactly what I'm seeing with all of these. They look similar to the correct positions...but you're just rotating your hips/legs/shoulders all at the same time. You're in balance but it's not creating any weight shift or separation of hips/shoulders and lag.

You should shift forward into the closed brace/instep. This will feel like a continuous motion off of your back leg (from the instep/toes), directly forwards. Then you'll have no choice but to have the hips start to open up. You're still reached back so this feeling travels upwards through your torso and starts to pull your shoulders and you get to the power pocket, and at this point you have no choice but to uncork the disc.

Right now you're planting and rotating your hips and upper body all at once.

 

[banzai7]

Yeah that's exactly what I'm seeing with all of these. They look similar to the correct positions...but you're just rotating your hips/legs/shoulders all at the same time. You're in balance but it's not creating any weight shift or separation of hips/shoulders and lag.

...

Right now you're planting and rotating your hips and upper body all at once.

Yup, AKA "strong arming". :doh: I always knew my lower body was not contributing to the throw. That's why the only way I could break 375' is throwing lighter faster discs in a tailwind... Gotta get the legs and hips involved, and the way forward is to nail the footwork and get the bracing sorted out.

Slowly but surely. Thanks for the help.

 

[slowplastic]

Yup, AKA "strong arming". :doh:

Nah...I don't consider that strong arming. I think of strong arming as going 100% from reachback with little regard for any body rotation...you couldn't throw your Teebird 325' from standstill with strongarming.

You're definitely getting there and seeing the big picture. And going about it in a good way with trying tons of variations when things don't improve. It'll click and it seems like you'll be able to assess it afterwards to remember some key points of what helped out, so it can be repeatable on different days.

 

[banzai7]

Quick question about the push off the back leg: maybe it's just the angle of the video, but in the Schusterick gif it looks like he is pushing off the back leg "backwards" like you would if you were trying to roll a car forwards and you had your butt up against the back bumper. But if you look at these guys, they are pushing more laterally -- like if you were trying to slide sideways on a slippery floor in socks.

http://gfycat.com/MiserableAdeptGentoopenguin

Sorry if that question is not very clear ...