Banzai's Battle with Bracing

[banzai7]

I have a timing question. I think I had been thinking about timing wrong previously.

Previous thinking:

• Plant toe down = max reachback
• Plant heel down = disc coming forward to right pec
• Rear foot off ground = hit

Now I'm thinking:

• Plant heel down = max reachback
• Rear foot off ground = disc at right pec/max elbow extension
• hips clearing = hit

Does this sound right? Just looking at that GG picture made me rethink the footwork/hips vs. shoulder swing/pull through timing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Wow, look at GG in that first frame! It looks so weird how his lower body is forwards and his upper body is so far back. I don't I've ever been that torqued. Also his plant foot is way out front of his hips and shoulders. I can see clearly I'm not doing that. I'll try to work on it. I skied competitively in high school, so I should be able to replicate the body positions. Just not used to doing it with the legs so far apart. Maybe the feeling at the plant is more like a "snowplow", and then you shift into a left turn?

First frame GG is basically in the Door Frame position or just released from it. I think you are correct with the skiing plow into left turn, I was a terrible skier.

 

[sidewinder22]

I have a timing question. I think I had been thinking about timing wrong previously.

Previous thinking:

• Plant toe down = max reachback
• Plant heel down = disc coming forward to right pec
• Rear foot off ground = hit

Now I'm thinking:

• Plant heel down = max reachback
• Rear foot off ground = disc at right pec/max elbow extension
• hips clearing = hit

Does this sound right? Just looking at that GG picture made me rethink the footwork/hips vs. shoulder swing/pull through timing.

For the most part yes, there's some variance of toe vs heel plant timing with the swing, depends on the actual bracing.

 

[slowplastic]

Now I'm thinking:

• Plant heel down = max reachback
• Rear foot off ground = disc at right pec/max elbow extension
• hips clearing = hit

Does this sound right? Just looking at that GG picture made me rethink the footwork/hips vs. shoulder swing/pull through timing.

I see it as reachback as front foot is going out there, equal and opposite, "move around the disc". Max reachback at toe touch position. While at toe touch, weight is shifting from back instep to the still "hovering" front side that is toe down. The weight now transfers to the heel (rear foot should feel like it's already de-weighted). You're trying to be reached back still at this point, but the weight transfer is now tugging your hips open.

At this point your weight is on your plant foot and your upper body is coming to the right pec position. Now I feel like my brace foot has accepted and is now countering the momentum, pushing back against the instep. The right side of my torso has to open up from my hips starting to open, and I'm at the right pec position. So I let that open my torso and I whip my shoulder as well. Boom.

You need that weight transfer early, it was weird to figure out. Your front side has to accept the weight and be countering it during the hit, so you have a firm axis for your shoulder to tug against. What I listed is how it feels to me...not sure if it's exactly as video, should be close...but it's how it feels when I do it.

As far as how the transfers feel, I feel like my back knee moves forwards and compresses a spring that goes from my left hip to my right hip, which is parallel to the target. That doesn't make sense because hips don't compress...but once it hits a certain tension point at compression my hips get redirected open, towards the target. I really try to be reached back and I feel some tension between my right hip and right armpit, a little more on my back than the side. This is the main muscle that I feel things in, rather than my shoulder socket.

The hips don't feel like they collide, and I don't feel the extension in the plant leg...it just happens. Figure out the body positions, try to swing a baseball bat or just go through an in-balance rotation without any object, from neutral to hips forward. Figure out how things should clear and how to end in balance. Once you know how it should feel, it just works. It's like heel rotation or follow through...once you get into the positions before it, the rest just happens.

 

[banzai7]

Now I feel like my brace foot has accepted and is now countering the momentum, pushing back against the instep. [...] Your front side has to accept the weight and be countering it during the hit, so you have a firm axis for your shoulder to tug against.

I feel like my back knee moves forwards and compresses a spring that goes from my left hip to my right hip, which is parallel to the target. That doesn't make sense because hips don't compress...but once it hits a certain tension point at compression my hips get redirected open, towards the target.

Thanks, slowplastic, these descriptions are super helpful. Especially the "accepted the weight but countering the momentum".

 

[banzai7]

Another Go

Another couple days drilling at home and then taking it to the field. The most recent feedback from SW22 and Slowplastic has been super helpful, and I think I know better how it should look and how it should feel.

This time I tried something completely different: I was really trying to think of the front leg brace more like a ski turn or a hockey stop, pushing hard against the instep and having the leg at a more exaggerated angle to push back against the momentum. With my knees slightly more bent and my hips back instead of directly under my shoulders, I'm able to still feel that braced internal hip rotation while getting plant foot farther out from my body (instead of directly under my hip/knee).

Anyway, I'm determined to get this right.

I've named the throws just for ease of reference; I wasn't actually trying to throw with a "higher pull line" or "lower pull line". It is just so we can refer back to them.

I also got video from behind and from the front. I almost didn't post them because I'm afraid they will open a whole new can of worms, with all sorts of other problems with my form. But I gotta stay focused on one issue at a time otherwise I will never progress. My focus right now is to get the bracing/weight shift right.

Here it is ...

 

[slowplastic]

That looks way better! I like the lower swing plane ones. This is where I'm sure SW22 has way more things about body positions to say than I know.

Look at this still shot from your lower pull line #2...you direct your knee behind your plant and have a really good grip late on the disc. You're lined up behind your plant foot completely. I bet this was a really good shot. Your weight shift is still not getting the hips to go first I think...it's hard to say but I think it's not quite that last step...but keep doing it like in this throw for a while and I'm sure you'll see 350+ a lot.

I also show here that your rear knee on some shots is going on an angle, rather than directly underneath you targetwards. Look at any of Will Schusterick's shots and how is rear leg is directed at the hit point and after the shot, in comparison. I drew the yellow lines to try to show what direction I feel you should be aiming for...directing it at the target kind of through/behind your body. The perspective on the arrows looks kind of upwards but I can't do better in Paint...it should be level with the ground-ish, obviously.

 

[sidewinder22]

Watch this again and again.

 

[banzai7]

That looks way better! I like the lower swing plane ones. This is where I'm sure SW22 has way more things about body positions to say than I know.

Thanks for the encouragement, I was thinking they looked better too. I was still spinning out sometimes because it was taking a lot of effort in my quad/hams/glutes to hold off that momentum (a lot like skiing). Sometimes I just couldn't hold it. And I suspect it should feel easier to do than all that, and so my body positions must still be off going into the hit.

Look at this still shot from your lower pull line #2...you direct your knee behind your plant and have a really good grip late on the disc. You're lined up behind your plant foot completely. I bet this was a really good shot.

IIRC, that particular shot with the Roc3 definitely had some heat but it came out with hyzer
so it wasn't quite as long as the others. Strangely, I've noticed the longest shots are inevitably the ones where I go back and look at the tape and I'm clearly over the top! I had one shot with a Fuse that went around 50' longer than all the other shots, and I spun out on the front foot and was way over my plant. I don't get it really ... this stuff makes zero logical sense to me. And I actually have a PhD in logic.

Your weight shift is still not getting the hips to go first I think...it's hard to say but I think it's not quite that last step...

Yup, I think this is still an issue and it might be related to what you point out about the direction of the rear knee.

 

[banzai7]

Watch this again and again.

Okay, I will. I've already watched it twice this morning. But your post is kind of cryptic to me ... I can't tell if I'm on the right track and need to solidify by watching a rewatching that video, or if I'm still way off -- so bad that I just need to hit the "reset button" and go back to basics.

Should I literally try to replicate the body positions of Shawn Clement in that video? Maybe I should try to learn to swing a golf club lefthanded? That seems strange because there are a number of body positions there that DGers never seem to be in. (For example, his plant foot is directly under his knee which is directly under his hip which is directly under his shoulder. He's not "stacked" behind like the GG image you posted.) Or should I be rewatching the video to take the concepts of weight transfer and apply them to my DG swing? (For example, my hunch is that the emphasis on the weight shift being from behind you is super important, and I'm probably still shifting from the front. But I don't really understand that concept fully and can't see how to fix it in a DG swing.)

Sorry if my constant failures are wearing on your patience. Thanks so much for putting in the time and effort to help some random dude on the internet.

 

[banzai7]

Key bit: 1:54 through 2:25, "you're gone".
https://youtu.be/0CSHqnYNijw?t=1m54s

Also Mike Maves 2:08 through 2:25, "you're totally cooked"
https://youtu.be/dAXNglCDcz4?t=2m08s

I'm pretty sure at this point that that's what I'm doing. In the latest bracing attempts I'm just doing a better job of trying to counterbalance this, but it's still incorrect from the get go.

However, there's also this sort of mistake involving a misalignment of the spine: 5:31 through 5:46.
https://youtu.be/0CSHqnYNijw?t=5m31s
I can't tell if these are different mistakes, or basically the same mistake. Is weightshifting "from the front" the same thing as weightshifting too late?

 

[sidewinder22]

Okay, I will. I've already watched it twice this morning. But your post is kind of cryptic to me ... I can't tell if I'm on the right track and need to solidify by watching a rewatching that video, or if I'm still way off -- so bad that I just need to hit the "reset button" and go back to basics.

Should I literally try to replicate the body positions of Shawn Clement in that video? Maybe I should try to learn to swing a golf club lefthanded? That seems strange because there are a number of body positions there that DGers never seem to be in. (For example, his plant foot is directly under his knee which is directly under his hip which is directly under his shoulder. He's not "stacked" behind like the GG image you posted.) Or should I be rewatching the video to take the concepts of weight transfer and apply them to my DG swing? (For example, my hunch is that the emphasis on the weight shift being from behind you is super important, and I'm probably still shifting from the front. But I don't really understand that concept fully and can't see how to fix it in a DG swing.)

Sorry if my constant failures are wearing on your patience. Thanks so much for putting in the time and effort to help some random dude on the internet.

Yes, do exactly what Shawn is doing there, just that little move with the bounce/settle. The difference with GG is that he has a lot more forward momentum and has to get his leg out in front to brace.

Your stance is too wide and flat footed so you don't really get that bounce/settle effect, you just gradually move your weight so your weight shift is late.

 

[sidewinder22]

Key bit: 1:54 through 2:25, "you're gone".
https://youtu.be/0CSHqnYNijw?t=1m54s

Also Mike Maves 2:08 through 2:25, "you're totally cooked"
https://youtu.be/dAXNglCDcz4?t=2m08s

I'm pretty sure at this point that that's what I'm doing. In the latest bracing attempts I'm just doing a better job of trying to counterbalance this, but it's still incorrect from the get go.

However, there's also this sort of mistake involving a misalignment of the spine: 5:31 through 5:46.
https://youtu.be/0CSHqnYNijw?t=5m31s
I can't tell if these are different mistakes, or basically the same mistake. Is weightshifting "from the front" the same thing as weightshifting too late?

For the most part, yes.

 

[slowplastic]

Yes, do exactly what Shawn is doing there, just that little move with the bounce/settle. The difference with GG is that he has a lot more forward momentum and has to get his leg out in front to brace.

You push/shift into the settle, right? It's not just a "drop" motion? That's the issue I was having, I took that too literally and was doing the settle/crush thing with my front foot and it was pulling my body forward, rather than continuing motion into that plant.

It's hard to talk about because it just feels normal after a while, whereas any change initially is much easier to describe, before it becomes automatic.

 

[sidewinder22]

You push/shift into the settle, right? It's not just a "drop" motion? That's the issue I was having, I took that too literally and was doing the settle/crush thing with my front foot and it was pulling my body forward, rather than continuing motion into that plant.

It's hard to talk about because it just feels normal after a while, whereas any change initially is much easier to describe, before it becomes automatic.

Yes, it's really hard to talk/think about both legs at the same time and there's some variance of timing depending on your speed. The weight needs to leave your rear foot in some fashion pushed/leveraged up and/or forward while falling into the brace/front heel.

 

[banzai7]

Yes, it's really hard to talk/think about both legs at the same time and there's some variance of timing depending on your speed. The weight needs to leave your rear foot in some fashion pushed/leveraged up and/or forward while falling into the brace/front heel.

From a standstill, is it okay to just work on falling into the weight shift and brace? At least for now, until I get the feel?

 

[sidewinder22]

From a standstill, is it okay to just work on falling into the weight shift and brace? At least for now, until I get the feel?

You can drill throwing from one leg or feet together - You should be able to throw almost as far. Also crush the can with your rear foot elevated/raised a few inches:

 

[slowplastic]

Yes, it's really hard to talk/think about both legs at the same time and there's some variance of timing depending on your speed. The weight needs to leave your rear foot in some fashion pushed/leveraged up and/or forward while falling into the brace/front heel.

Good stuff, this is how it's seeming for me. Still adjusting to what tempo I'm doing it at, as like you say things vary based on speed. By things I mean stride width as well as the transfer timing. Got to get it efficiently maxed out before going through it too fast.

 

[banzai7]

Another 2-steps-forward-1-step-back update.

I started out by drilling that bounce/settle move quite a lot, crushing cans, and then using a little elevation in my rear foot to really feel the brace. Instead of swinging my arms around like an idiot, I put some weight in my right hand (a massive heavy coffee mug). It really got me the feel for timing the weight shift at the top of the backswing. Pushing down that right heel at the right time felt like pressing on the accelerator.

So I went back and rewatched the "reciprocating dingle arm" video a couple times, and then put a hammer in my hand and started shifting my weight. I gradually moved my arm swing from a vertical plane to horizontal (like SW does in that video), and could really feel the momentum.

Eventually I put a disc in my hand, and I could feel it still. So I took a couple of throws into a shrub at my house, and they were ejecting out of my hand like a rocket. Just blasting out with no effort. I thought that was a good sign.

I only had a short time to sneak away to field today. But here are the results:

The good news: I'm definitely hitting the disc harder again. I think that early weight shift has really locked in a timing variable in my swing. From a standstill, I threw a Fuse around 275' today, and for the fun of it threw a Star Valk to 360' on a standstill. My best throws from a standstill are going about as far as I was averaging before with a full run-up. And it just feels effortless.

The bad news: the discs are flying very inconsistently. Nose angle is all over the place, hyzer/anhyzer angles are unpredictable. OAT shows up on random throws. I'm throwing from a completely new balance point, and so it's hard to get it sorted out. I hope that will come with time.

The other issue is that although the bracing feels much stronger, I still have a tendency to come over the top with my head/shoulders on about a third of my throws. The real question is whether the earlier weight shift is going to lead to a solid brace... On video I saw that there are a lot of fairly obvious things to clean up first, so I'm going to work on it for a couple more days before I post video.

 

[sidewinder22]

Practice your new balance, it's like learning to walk again.