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The good news: I'm definitely hitting the disc harder again. I think that early weight shift has really locked in a timing variable in my swing. From a standstill, I threw a Fuse around 275' today, and for the fun of it threw a Star Valk to 360' on a standstill. My best throws from a standstill are going about as far as I was averaging before with a full run-up. And it just feels effortless.
The bad news: the discs are flying very inconsistently. Nose angle is all over the place, hyzer/anhyzer angles are unpredictable. OAT shows up on random throws. I'm throwing from a completely new balance point, and so it's hard to get it sorted out. I hope that will come with time.
The other issue is that although the bracing feels much stronger, I still have a tendency to come over the top with my head/shoulders on about a third of my throws. The real question is whether the earlier weight shift is going to lead to a solid brace... On video I saw that there are a lot of fairly obvious things to clean up first, so I'm going to work on it for a couple more days before I post video.
Awesome! Hitting 350+ from standstill is a very very good sign.
I agree with what SW22 said...just keep practicing what you're doing now. You've had a huge breakthrough so just do it for many sessions and get used to it so it's consistent, and then see where this maxes out.
For me the random OAT tends to come from drifting during the hit...like having my upper body still tip over while I'm throwing. It causes the swing plane to start level then dip downwards, and at the hit you're changing angles. This flips discs over like crazy, and then you may end up trying to adjust with different hyzer angles, and then you're not throwing as far as before either so you try harder and everything gets worse...yep. Also it tends to lead to over the top throws where I feel like I'm yanking stable/overstable discs on a bit of an anhyzer when I start going down that road.
Just keep doing what you're doing and concentrate on being balanced during the throw. Don't need tons of forward momentum, just a clean shift and nice solid brace without the upper body tipping forwards. You're throwing 350+ from standstill now and you've seen how it can be done without killing the disc.
Well, I have been struggling to find the time to get out in the field to practice the last few days. I got out this morning for a field session that didn't go so well. It was soaking wet out there, and so my footwork was slipping and spinning all over the place.
Things seem to be going downhill after the last field session. I'm definitely still hitting the disc harder and throwing decently far, but I cannot seem to throw straight. My swing plane is totally out of whack and I can't seem to find any adjustments that work. There's some insane amount of OAT on some throws that I can't seem to get rid of. The earlier weight shift has helped my timing I think, but really hurt my aim and consistency.
Anyway, I've got some video here. I've included a throw where I'm clearly over-the-top. This still shows up every once in a while -- especially if I'm trying to throw hard. I've also included a rear view angle which really shows how crazy my swing plane is.
I guess I'd like to fix all the various issues with the throw, but I'm wondering whether this earlier weight shift looks any better, or if the bracing is still way wrong.
Your balance and posture is too much into your rear heel in the backswing. You have both your heels on the ground at the same time during the swing. One heel should be going up when the other is going down. Move your heels/weight and maintain a more athletic balanced and stacked position toward your knees and toes. I'd suggest trying a backswing with your feet together and bending/tilting over slightly toward your knees and turning back on that tilted axis so your front shoulder is much lower than your other shoulder, you should feel a different load. Also keep the disc parallel to your shoulder plane and perpendicular to your spine.
Watch the position Brinster gets into when his front heel plants:
Ah, maybe that's what is going on ... I keep seeing myself tipping over the top on some throws, and then not getting an early weight shift on other throws. Being too far weight back would explain why I'm tempted to rely on my shoulders/head to get my center of gravity forward.
I'll try the legs together swing and see how it feels. Quick question about this: I was recently rewatching the "tilted spiral" video and the "clearing the hips video". Which direction is the "tilt" of the spiral? Is your upper body tilted toward your toes? Or is it tilted away from the target, like your upper body is titled away from the plant foot and toward the rear foot? Maybe it is both?
Shawn doesn't talk much about tilted away from the plant, which to me seems like what is needed for proper bracing. But maybe I'm not getting something. In the "clearing the hips" video, Clement says it's important to keep your hips protruded ...as in butt out: 0:30 to 0:50
I take it you want me to practice the swing in this sort of position, maybe a bit more exaggerated.
Tilted spiral axis toward the toes for the most part, there is some tilt away and toward the target, but that's mostly a function of loading weight and not a rotational axis.
Yup, I can see it. :doh: Alright. I'm just not getting this "shifting from behind you" thing to happen during a throw. I *think* I can do it when there's no disc in my hand. Maybe when I get home from work I'll just video some weight shifts with no throw to see if I'm doing it right --- to see if I'm doing *anything* right.
Alright, here's a video of me just trying to sort out the weight shift issue without a disc in hand. I'm not really paying attention to my upper body positions here. I'm basically learning that it's pretty much impossible to focus on more than one thing while doing a physical motion. So here's my attempt at simplifying.
I'm trying out a bunch of different concepts that I've seen around. The first is the bounce/settle "from behind you" thing from the Shawn Clement Downswing Weightshift video. The second is the result of doing the Hersheiser drill and leading with the butt. The third is my attempt at drive the hips forward as recommended by Feldberg in the 2013 Tip #1 video.
Are any of these on the right track?
Edit: please ignore the crappy video quality and my looking like an idiot moving around weirdly in my kitchen.
Hershyzer looks the best of them. Try moving your rear foot forward and to the right, after the plant so you finish feet together/tangled and totally upright like Feldy shows in that vid. Holding/swinging something heavy like a hammer should help as well.
Alright, it's the start of the semester around here, so I've been a bit busy. But I've been drilling and I think I'm making slow improvements.
I think I know the feeling of bracing, it feels tight in my lead foot's upper hip joint, and also tight in the inner thighs. Sometimes I can feel my rear hip "bounce back". I'm just having a hard time replicating consistently ... especially when throwing a disc.
Here's a video of me swinging a hammer around in my backyard, trying to shift my weight from behind into a braced position. There's also a disc throw at the end. Let me know what you think.
be careful on your elbow... hammering like that can bottom out that thing in a bad way. Follow through is there for a reason, you don't want to hyzer-extend.
Delay your reach back a little bit and you will feel the power or your hips after you plant. It looks like you are hitting the peak of your backswing too early.
That's not dinglearming it, and as HUB said, beware your elbow there. You need to slow down and control and swing/throw the weight of the hammer in a linear direction and use your body to counter weight it. Slow Effortless swing using your body. Notice how my body doesn't appear to move, but my weight is shifting back and forth 100%. Compact stance and weight shift is efficient.
1st pic is the top of the backswing/transition...Note how I have more of my weight centered and posture stacked toward the rear foot. The weight of the hammer/swing is pulling away from the target and pulling my weight into the back foot, bracing against that pull of the hammer. My core is loaded like a spring into the rear instep and knee slightly flexed. Also note my shoulder is under my chin and the arm/hammer swing back under it and the head of the hammer swings above my hand.
Now look at where your weight and posture are centered in the backswing/transition. You have already lunged forward and extended your rear knee, so there's no more lower body torque available, it's spent and you are totally cooked done. Also note your chin is buried into your shoulder and tension in your arm as the weight of the hammer as it doesn't swing above your hand.
2nd pic is the finish/top of the dinglearm before it swings back. Note how stacked and square my body is to us and my arm/hammer are pointed straight at the target...everything is inline to the target and my weight is 100% forward. There is zero pressure/weight on the rear foot with the pull of the swinging weight of the hammer and arm out to the target. My hips are slightly ahead of my shoulders so my spine angle is centered on the front leg.
Now take a gander at the top of your pre-swing/dinglearm into the backswing. Your shoulders are over rotated and over top of your hips, so your spine angle is centered on the rear leg. If you released the hammer it would go way right instead of straight. That's where you are essentially aiming your momentum/weight.
be careful on your elbow... hammering like that can bottom out that thing in a bad way. Follow through is there for a reason, you don't want to hyzer-extend.
I didn't even think of that. I didn't feel rough on my joints at all --- it looks more violent on video that it really was. But yeah, no reason to risk it and so I won't be doing that any more. Keep the elbow straight.
Thanks! For the first time, I'm definitely feeling braced on many of the swings. I know the rest of my body positions aren't right, but I think I've somewhat gotten the feel and concept.
Delay your reach back a little bit and you will feel the power or your hips after you plant. It looks like you are hitting the peak of your backswing too early.
Interesting. This lines up with some of what SW22 says below. Part of why I was doing it this way was before I was told I was weightshifting too late in the pull. So this is my attempt at weightshifting much earlier -- getting weight forward before I start the pull. But maybe I'm rushing it.
Hershyzer looks the best of them. Try moving your rear foot forward and to the right, after the plant so you finish feet together/tangled and totally upright like Feldy shows in that vid. Holding/swinging something heavy like a hammer should help as well.
That means what you're looking at is the hershiser followed by me moving my rear foot forward and to the right --- which explains a lot of why my body positions aren't the same as in the dinglearm vid.
That's not dinglearming it, and as HUB said, beware your elbow there. You need to slow down and control and swing/throw the weight of the hammer in a linear direction and use your body to counter weight it. Slow Effortless swing using your body. Notice how my body doesn't appear to move, but my weight is shifting back and forth 100%. Compact stance and weight shift is efficient.
Got it. I won't swing a hammer like that again. I can see that your body doesn't appear to move ... mine does because you told me to move it! (I've posted a new video of me below just trying to replicate the dinglearm motion with a more compact stance and efficient weightshift.)
1st pic ...Note how I have more of my weight centered and posture stacked toward the rear foot. The weight of the hammer/swing is pulling away from the target and pulling my weight into the back foot, bracing against that pull of the hammer. My core is loaded like a spring into the rear instep and knee slightly flexed. ...
Now look at where your weight and posture are centered in the backswing/transition. You have already lunged forward and extended your rear knee, so there's no more lower body torque available, it's spent and you are totally cooked done...
Okay, here is where I have some questions. I can see the difference in the two images, of course. But I was going for the Hershiser drill position, as you recommended. Basically, I'm in the "just-release-from-the-door-frame" position here, with my weight already shifted forward. Remember Shawn Clement in the Downswing Weightshift vid asks "what is the true top of the backswing?" and then shows it is weightshifted forward and braced against the front leg. That's what I'm going for here. Which is why I'm confused when you say the torque is already spent, because I thought that was the point.
This also relates to something I read on another old bracing thread, and something slowplastic says frequently, namely that you should be shifting into the plant, and not dropping the plant heel and then weightshifting. Sidewinder, you mention elsewhere that if you fully plant and brace, and then try to weightshift it can jam up your lower back. I've felt that a few times, and it's not pleasant. So I guess I'm somewhat confused because it seems like I'm reading conflicting advice.
2nd pic is the finish/top of the dinglearm before it swings back. Note how stacked and square my body is to us and my arm/hammer are pointed straight at the target...everything is inline to the target and my weight is 100% forward. There is zero pressure/weight on the rear foot with the pull of the swinging weight of the hammer and arm out to the target. My hips are slightly ahead of my shoulders so my spine angle is centered on the front leg.
To be honest, in the dinglearm video I have a hard time seeing the weightshift. It's too subtle. Both of your heels are flat on the ground throughout -- and given that I'm trying to follow your previous advice not to be flatfooted in the backswing, I'm trying to be a bit more dynamic with my heels.
Now take a gander at the top of your pre-swing/dinglearm into the backswing. Your shoulders are over rotated and over top of your hips, so your spine angle is centered on the rear leg. If you released the hammer it would go way right instead of straight. That's where you are essentially aiming your momentum/weight.
I wonder if some of this might just be a result of the fact that I'm swinging the hammer much harder than you are in that vid, and so my "finish" position has more follow through, both in the shoulder swing, and in the rear leg to counter balance it. I can definitely see the difference in your spine angle vs mine, and that's something I definitely need to fix.
So here's my attempt at just doing the dinglearm thing.
To be honest, in the dinglearm video I have a hard time seeing the weightshift. It's too subtle. Both of your heels are flat on the ground throughout -- and given that I'm trying to follow your previous advice not to be flatfooted in the backswing, I'm trying to be a bit more dynamic with my heels.
Actually, nevermind. I was watching it on my phone this morning. The weight shift is subtle but it's definitely clearer on my computer screen. Especially in the side view. I think what I'm learning is that the weightshift needn't be as extreme as I'm making it out to be.
I think you are really close, it's just a matter of connecting the dots between the brace and the dingle-arm. You just have to find the rhythm at this point.
Okay, here is where I have some questions. I can see the difference in the two images, of course. But I was going for the Hershiser drill position, as you recommended. Basically, I'm in the "just-release-from-the-door-frame" position here, with my weight already shifted forward. Remember Shawn Clement in the Downswing Weightshift vid asks "what is the true top of the backswing?" and then shows it is weightshifted forward and braced against the front leg. That's what I'm going for here. Which is why I'm confused when you say the torque is already spent, because I thought that was the point.
This also relates to something I read on another old bracing thread, and something slowplastic says frequently, namely that you should be shifting into the plant, and not dropping the plant heel and then weightshifting. Sidewinder, you mention elsewhere that if you fully plant and brace, and then try to weightshift it can jam up your lower back. I've felt that a few times, and it's not pleasant. So I guess I'm somewhat confused because it seems like I'm reading conflicting advice.
Width of stance and speed, vary things. My feet are directly under my shoulders, narrow stance makes it almost impossible to jam anything. You are also confusing weightshift and torque. The rear foot driving/torquing from the ground in a planted wide stance will jam up your lower back. Your rear knee being extended means your torque is spent. Watch any top thrower and the rear knee remains bent/torqued during the swing even when there is no weight on the rear foot.
I wonder if some of this might just be a result of the fact that I'm swinging the hammer much harder than you are in that vid, and so my "finish" position has more follow through, both in the shoulder swing, and in the rear leg to counter balance it. I can definitely see the difference in your spine angle vs mine, and that's something I definitely need to fix.
So here's my attempt at just doing the dinglearm thing.
A little better, don't worry about the spine angle just feel the bracing upright. You need to feel the hammer pulling you forward and backward more and brace against that momentum pulling you.
(I've posted a new video of me below just trying to replicate the dinglearm motion with a more compact stance and efficient weightshift.)
