Banzai's Battle with Bracing

[banzai7]

You need to get "over" the disc a bit more, so it goes through the power pocket where you feel like you're on top of it as it's coming through your torso area.

Okay, I'll give this a go. I think this is what SW22 was after when he was recommending I mimic Brinster. I love throwing hyzers, and so maybe I'll practice that to see if it helps my horrific swing plane.

As well your rear foot kicks up for some reason. Don't really think about pushing hard off of that rear foot, it may create some of the weird lift and things that are happening. I know I have mentioned several times about having a shift into the brace, rather than dragging into the brace, but it's a smooth continued momentum transfer, and it's the timing of it that changed for me...I'm definitely not pushing my rear foot like crazy. If anything I concentrate on that internal loading of the rear hip in the backswing, and my balance happens to be on the instep/toes of the rear foot.

That's a really helpful description. I think I have been pushing way too hard ... trying to generate power from my legs instead of just using the momentum. Maybe part of that is that I'm throwing from a standstill and with more forward momentum it'll feel more natural to guide that momentum rather than accelerate off the rear foot.

I also agree with the elbow position...I used to have my elbow too far forward and it lead to some very floaty/spin shots that would hit 350+ without much effort...but I feel like having the disc a little farther back now gets me better arm speed. Really these things kind of fix themselves after time, you just have to experiment with what feels smooth and powerful, and eventually when your hip and weight shift timing are correct you end up going through the correct upper body positions every time for a smooth throw. It's just tough because it requires like 10 things to happen correctly, but it does work out eventually.

Yup, I'm hoping it comes with practice. Once I consistently have the "feel" of bracing I can mess around timing variables and stuff too feel what is most powerful.

 

[slowplastic]

That's a really helpful description. I think I have been pushing way too hard ... trying to generate power from my legs instead of just using the momentum. Maybe part of that is that I'm throwing from a standstill and with more forward momentum it'll feel more natural to guide that momentum rather than accelerate off the rear foot.

That's a good idea, you are balanced enough that adding the X-step in will help you feel some added momentum and free up your front leg to plant in a different (farther out if necessary) position. Try some x-step throws (after fixing swing plane/keeping it level) and put that into your practice regime...I definitely found that it helped me feel the brace more because you have to end up balanced or else you really go over the top. Now that you know what balanced/braced feels like in the follow through, you can easily identify if it didn't happen.

Also with the arm/elbow position thing, I felt like the less properly connected my lower and upper body were, the more I could make a choice with how far forward to bring my elbow. It led to a lot more hot/cold days for if I could throw well or not. Once I got a smoother weight transfer that actually did something, the upper body went through the right positions on its own and I don't really have to search for the hit at the beginning of every session like I used to (before I might have thrown my 2nd shot well, or I may have had to throw across a field for 20+ minutes before feeling a good throw to duplicate).

 

[banzai7]

Sidewinder, quick question. What do you mean "from the inside out"?

You have to swing upward from the inside out.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sidewinder, quick question. What do you mean "from the inside out"?

 

[banzai7]

Less push, more shift

I got a brief chance to get some video as the daylight was fading last night. I've been working on three things: (1) trying to get my swing plane more level; (2) trying to use the ground for leverage and "evert" my right foot for a more "ball golf" looking swing, rather than kicking up the back foot; and (3) figure out how to not end up over the top.

I *think* I'm making progress. These feel different and better. I've also included a rear view shot of me throwing some hyzers and trying to get the tilted spiral Brinster position. As you can see, I'm hitting about 20° off line to the right some times. I think maybe it is to do with the elbow extension being too late ... Anyway, the timing stuff can be fixed later hopefully.

Anyway, how is the bracing?

 

[sidewinder22]

Rear foot looks a lot better. You are still starting to turn forward before your weight gets forward and your front knee is moving too much forward instead of bracing. When you go into your backswing you are exaggerating your front heel/foot pickup off the ground and losing the connection of your leg and body/weight moving back and consequent back forward into the plant. The front foot/heel should only be moved off the ground by your body turning/loading back and pulling momentum of the backswing away from the target. You should push into the backswing from the front foot to initiate it, but keep it on the ground for the most part(heel can come off the ground, but just barely) and then let the momentum of the backswing pull it up as your weight/load increases on the rear foot. If you turn/load/balance hard enough into the rear hip your front foot will have no choice but to actually go fully airborne and your weight will still be connected to it, but weightless from the ground as a scale would read. Hard to describe, you push your weight up and then that momentum drags the leg.

Another way to attempt this is to do a pitcher's motion rather than a batter or golfer. Stand basically feet together, wind up the front leg with the knee going high and back and totally balanced on the rear foot/leg, then drop your front knee low behind the rear leg(also bending the rear knee/hip to lower your center of gravity) and then stride forward. The main issue with doing the pitching motion is the tendency to plant open, but you should feel how to stride from the rear leg better balanced/rhythm. Or start from the Hershyzer position legs crossed and knees slightly flexed. The Hershyzer position should help feeling the need to stay more closed into the plant. The main difference from a pitcher's stride is that they throw from the rear arm, so the stride is naturally much longer and open than if they were throwing backhanded.

 

[banzai7]

Okay, good. A little progress ... can't complain.

I can feel myself getting closer to bracing; I think I know what I'm going for, it just still feels like it takes too long to get into it. It's like the "rise" and "roll" are happening too late, after the "release" of the disc. Part of that is I don't quite feel how to "resist" the momentum early in the swing. Without a disc in hand, if I'm mimicking the motions in "slow-mo", I can get myself to feel the "resist" --- the squeeze between the knees --- but once I put a disc in hand and go through the motions full speed I lose it.

Thanks for the tip about my front heel rising up artificially. You're totally right, I can feel myself doing it subconsciously. Fixing that will hopefully help. I'll try a bunch of one-step throws from the start of the Hershyzer and maybe see how the pitching thing goes. (I just tried it in my office and it feels very strange.)

Anyway, thanks again for the feedback.

 

[slowplastic]

Looks way better. SW had tons of detail, I will just say that what I saw is that the front leg/knee are opening up at the plant, rather than resisting the shift and then helping to clear the hips. But the shift is way better, and the hips look like they have some impact/transfer at the hit point from bracing, so that's good.

It looks like your plant knee goes a bit forward of the front foot for an instant. It's got to stay inside that instep. SW22 already recommended doing 1-step throws, which is a good way to feel how you have to brace and as well allow you to get that plant further forward if needed. Also maybe try some X-steps since you know how bracing feels now, and this will maybe help you shift into a closed plant and stay inside of that foot, because with the extra momentum, if you don't...you'll drift forwards.

The hyzer practice is good, I also found that when getting used to this stuff the best thing to do was throw putters/stable to understable mids/stable to understable fairways on mild hyzer lines. That way I could tell that I was keeping clean planes, and also since the hyzer takes away distance I never got it in my head that the shots weren't going "far enough", leading me to trying to kill it. Then when I flattened out the shots again the distance would come. I know this is a different reasoning than the tilted spiral angles you are going for with the hyzers, but just saying there are some other good mental side effects for practicing with those hyzers.

 

[banzai7]

Played a casual round yesterday, and instead of just throwing from a standstill I threw a couple of shots from an X-step. On a couple of them I could feel that I got the weight shift early enough to get into the brace; on one shot in particular I threw a PD 30'+ farther than I've ever thrown on that hole, and the disc never went higher than 6' or 7' off the ground. I also parked a 280' hole with a Mace from a one-step. I think I might be getting it right on a few of my throws ... it's hard to know without video. Definitely feeling tight in the front hip on about every throw now, but it is often too late in the throw -- like sometime after the hit.

One thing I'm noticing is that from standstill and one step throws, the heel pivot is really inconsistent. Like sometimes (often) it doesn't happen at all and I end up finishing with my foot still twisted backward. Other times it just pops open automatically at/after the hit. Is the heel pivot totally incidental? Or is it a sign that you've had strong impact into the brace?

Hopefully I get some more drilling in the field over the weekend.

 

[sidewinder22]

One thing I'm noticing is that from standstill and one step throws, the heel pivot is really inconsistent. Like sometimes (often) it doesn't happen at all and I end up finishing with my foot still twisted backward. Other times it just pops open automatically at/after the hit. Is the heel pivot totally incidental? Or is it a sign that you've had strong impact into the brace?

Incidental, yes, it's not something you try to do, it just happens when you are balanced on the front leg and the swing of the arm/disc pulls your body through.

 

[slowplastic]

One thing I'm noticing is that from standstill and one step throws, the heel pivot is really inconsistent. Like sometimes (often) it doesn't happen at all and I end up finishing with my foot still twisted backward. Other times it just pops open automatically at/after the hit. Is the heel pivot totally incidental? Or is it a sign that you've had strong impact into the brace?

This happens to me sometimes too. Especially if I'm not throwing 80% or harder. Usually if I try to get a good arm swing/shoulder power on the shot from the power pocket, everything is really opened up. It's usually on mid-power fairway drives that I find my foot doesn't rotate...putters and mids I stay looser, but it tends to be on those fairway shots that I still transfer hard but don't swing through enough to pull my plant foot around. So yes it's incidental, but just make sure it never gets left far behind so that it causes pain.

Sounds look good progress again.

 

[banzai7]

I've been working on one-step and x-step throws, and finally got some video of it today. The video is not even worth posting. It's just all the same problems as before.

I'm kind of in a dilemma. If I don't get my weight shift completed "from behind me" I stay behind my plant, but spin out on my front foot. (This also happens when I plant too wide.) If I focus on trying to complete the weight shift from behind me, somehow my upper body is dragged along with it and I end up over the top. (This also seems to happen when I plant too narrow.)

The best throws I can manage are basically like the standstills from the last video ... where I am balanced enough so I'm not over the top, and I weight shift from behind just enough so I'm not spinning out. But I'm still not weight shifting fully from behind and so I'm hitting the brace too late in the throw.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to do it properly. It's driving me crazy.

One thing I noticed when watching the Schusterick standstill is that his upper body does seem to move toward the target when his heel drops (frames 3 and 4 in the image below). I think what's happening with me is my upper body is drifting too much targetward on the weight shift and I end up over the top. Any tips on solving this?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfqz427gnw3zb0f/Schusterick.jpg?dl=0

 

[banzai7]

Sorry about the broken embedded image link. Let me know if you have trouble seeing it via the url.

 

[sidewinder22]

Well if your front foot is still not planting heel forward of toes(crushing the can with your heel/weight moving forward like Will is doing there, and the front hip internally rotated), you are going to have a hard time maintaining dynamic balance and posture and staying inside of everything.

 

[banzai7]

I think I am planting heel forward of toes when I weight shift fully, but somehow when I do so my upper body drifts too far over my plant.

Seems like you're suggesting that the solution is just to plant with my foot even more closed. Maybe I'll try taking it to the extreme -- try to plant super closed, like foot pointing backwards, and then dial it back from there.

 

[sidewinder22]

Do exactly what Dion is doing here...crushing the can!

Also record yourself from behind the tee! I guarantee you are doing the same hip sway to the left that merakecow is doing on the left. In the middle and right pics you can see how Feldy and I keep the butt against the line aka Hogan Power Move/Drill.

 

[banzai7]

Do exactly what Dion is doing ... throw 500' uphill! :thmbup:

Seriously, that video is pretty great. He really is planting with some extreme internal hip rotation.

Got a busy day tomorrow, and then a doubles tournament Sat, but I'll try to get some video soon.

 

[slowplastic]

Remember to bend your knees during the X-step and/or load up, I have to remind myself that often. It is easier to stay athletic/balanced and "into" that plant this way, than if I'm too tall on my legs and tip onto the plant foot, which can cause that upper body drift.

Maybe try swinging a heavy object again like a bat? If things are not balanced you can really feel it tug you. But I'd recommend not doing these things until after the tournament...

 

[banzai7]

But I'd recommend not doing these things until after the tournament...

Ha! My form is so scrambled by now I don't think it'll make much of a difference.

It's getting better though... just inconsistent. Thanks for the tip about bending my knees. Does your front knee straighten/rise before/at the hit? Or does it stay bent like Will?

 

[slowplastic]

It never goes completely straight, but I believe it does extend a little bit more as my rear hip is hitting that invisible bracing wall, to kind of "push back" a bit and keep my right hip in the same place. This is from how it feels, and how I know my left knee acts in my right-handed baseball swing (which has a more extreme weight transfer and impact). Will's stride is so long that I am guessing that's why his knee is bent like that.