Banzai's Battle with Bracing

[banzai7]

Also, look how open Big Jerm's front plant foot is when the heel comes down. How does that work?

 

[sidewinder22]

Quick question about the push off the back leg: maybe it's just the angle of the video, but in the Schusterick gif it looks like he is pushing off the back leg "backwards" like you would if you were trying to roll a car forwards and you had your butt up against the back bumper. But if you look at these guys, they are pushing more laterally -- like if you were trying to slide sideways on a slippery floor in socks.

http://gfycat.com/MiserableAdeptGentoopenguin

Sorry if that question is not very clear ...

It is a lateral/sideways(left to right) move targetward, that's why the foot rolls to the side, so it can maintain torque/push to the target, just like a pitcher does.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also, look how open Big Jerm's front plant foot is when the heel comes down. How does that work?

He's a ten foot tall man best who showers in vodka.

 

[banzai7]

He's a ten foot tall man best who showers in vodka.

:clap:

 

[banzai7]

Discouraging Field Work

Alright, it's been a few discouraging days. I'm definitely feeling like I know what bracing feels like. The main problem: I'm not getting into the brace early enough in my throw. So it's not helping at all. I thought I had an "intellectual breakthrough" in understanding how to get into the brace earlier by planting my feet more closed.

So I drilled in my kitchen for a while on Friday night, and then took it to the field over the weekend. It felt a little better with a more closed plant, but I still wasn't feeling the brace until too late in the throw. I tried delaying my shoulder swing, but it just felt impossible to get into a balanced braced position. It felt impossible to get my hips that far forward. I was also griplocking everything and releasing like 45° right of my target. To add insult to injury, I was throwing on a soccer field that I know to be 96m (315'). And I wasn't even getting to 300' with fairway drivers with a full runup! My son was videoing me, and I could see myself slipping back into my old "coming over the top" form to try to strong arm it for more power. Yuck, yuck, yuck. :wall:

I went back out into the field this morning for a long session, just trying to get my hips more involved into a more closed foot plant. Towards the end of session, I decided to try focusing on being more faced up to the target throughout the throw, while still planting my front foot closed ....

BOOM... I threw my Roc3 almost to the end line (~300') on a laser beam. Tried it a bunch with good results, some off throws mixed in with mostly good ones. But I was hitting the disc much more on line, and not 45° right. I could feel myself getting into the brace early, well before my shoulders opened up to the target.

So here's what I think might be happening. I'm realizing that your hips can be rotated less while still being closed. I think I have been rotating my hips too far away from the target, which means they have too far to travel to get into a braced position before the shoulder swing. Check it out:

Notice how far my hips are rotated away at the plant, and how neutral McBeth's are. The notice how neutral my hips are at the hit vs. how open/faced up McBeth's are at the hit.

With more neutral hips together with a closed foot plant, I was noticing:

• More "torqued" feel at the plant
• Less work, easier weight shift
• Earlier bracing
• More faced up to target at hit
• Hitting on line
• Better balance, more athletic feel

Anyway, I didn't get any video today; I'll try to get some tomorrow. But before I really try to cement this change in, I'm wondering if I'm even on the right track in my understanding.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, it's internal hip rotation/load. See how McBeth's rear femur is facing us in the first pic and his body is turned/loaded into the hip(internal hip rotation), then he drove the hip and the rear femur to face the target(external hip rotation) with the rear knee hanging under the hip so all his weight is forward/smashing/squeezing. Since everything is loaded into that rear hip, everything moves forward more together/ driving all your weight forward in balance instead of just tipping the upper body over and letting the weight/force spill/leak out.

 

[banzai7]

Thank for your time and patience SW22. Looks like I'm on the right track. I had watched the Power Posture video before, but at that point I didn't really "get" what bracing was. Somehow it didn't click until I came to understand what I was doing wrong.

So by "internal hip rotation" you mean that the femur is rotating within the hip joint and getting that torqued/tight feeling -- the "corkscrewing" of the leg into the ground in the Maves video. And "external hip rotation" is when he hips rotate relative to each other, or rotate around the spine. So the weight shift is basically all internal hip rotation in the backswing, and then you shift into the brace with internal hip rotation into the plant foot followed by external hip rotation to face up to the target. Is this last step what is sometimes called "clearing the hips"?

What is it when people talk about "jamming the pivot"?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thank for your time and patience SW22. Looks like I'm on the right track. I had watched the Power Posture video before, but at that point I didn't really "get" what bracing was. Somehow it didn't click until I came to understand what I was doing wrong.

So by "internal hip rotation" you mean that the femur is rotating within the hip joint and getting that torqued/tight feeling -- the "corkscrewing" of the leg into the ground in the Maves video. And "external hip rotation" is when he hips rotate relative to each other, or rotate around the spine. So the weight shift is basically all internal hip rotation in the backswing, and then you shift into the brace with internal hip rotation into the plant foot followed by external hip rotation to face up to the target. Is this last step what is sometimes called "clearing the hips"?

What is it when people talk about "jamming the pivot"?

Technically the hips(joints) or femurs are somewhat independent of each other. What you are referring to as "hips" is really the pelvis unit.

In the backswing, the rear femur rotates internally against the pelvis to load/weight back in the corkscrewing.

In the transition to the forward swing, the rear femur rotates externally against the pelvis. And if your front leg is braced, your front hip/femur will then internally rotate as the pelvis/weight is driven into it. That is where the resistance comes in from the front leg and you get onto your front side. Once you are balanced on the front leg, you automatically "clear" your front hip and then pivot your foot and/or extend/externally rotate/rise up to release the pressure/torque.

Jamming most often happens because the front femur/hip is externally rotated(open) during the plant and can't easily resist/receive/transfer the weight coming through. There's too much room/laxity in the front hip so it slams and jams. It also happens because they are swinging before getting onto the front hip.

 

[slowplastic]

banzai7, if you lift your right foot off the ground and point your toes inwards (rotate counterclockwise) this would be internal rotation. Rotate your foot clockwise so your toes go to the right, external rotation of the right hip.

If you are pushing your left/back side forward, into the brace/plant, your front hip is being rotated internally. At some threshold you then have heel rotation to relieve the pressure.

 

[sidewinder22]

At some threshold you then have heel rotation to relieve the pressure.

And/or leg extension/rising.

 

[banzai7]

banzai7, if you lift your right foot off the ground and point your toes inwards (rotate counterclockwise) this would be internal rotation. Rotate your foot clockwise so your toes go to the right, external rotation of the right hip.

Wait, now I'm confused. It just seems like both directions are my femur rotating in my hip joint... "internal" just means rotating the femur towards your center line and "external" just means away from your center line?

I was thinking that "internal" means femur rotating (either direction) in the hip joint, and the "external" means the rotation of the pelvic unit with your center line/spine as the axis.

I'm happy to use ther words however we want, just as long as I'm using them the same way as you and SW22.

 

[banzai7]

Okay, I got a quick video in today before work. It's just me throwing discs into a shrub in my back yard.

I think I'm getting some sort of bracing. I still spin out about 50% of the time. Video seems to show it's either due to too much weight forward, or planting my foot too open ... I think.

Anyway, let me know if this is getting any better. If not, give it to me straight.

 

[sidewinder22]

First one is slightly better, your elbow is past your foot and knee so you are over the top in both. Second shot, your knee goes right past your ankle spinning out. You need to stiffen your front knee before impact and stay more on the inside edge of the foot like a skier in a turn. If you were skiing, you would face plant as your weight goes to the outside edge of your front foot and your upper body continues forward past your contact point.

 

[banzai7]

Gah! Thanks... Old habits die hard, I guess. Somehow it feels like subconsciously I'm afraid if I'm not "forward" I'll throw badly nose up.

What I mean is: if I'm braced against the inside of my plant leg, and it's like this: /, and my spine is aligned with my right hip, then it seems like my pull through is going to be aimed sky high. I'll experiment and try to get more "inside" in the next few days and see what happens.

So I want to be sure my elbow is behind my foot when the disc is at the right pec? And my head behind the knee.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, and if you feel like you going to throw way high, it's probably due to your grip/alignment and swing plane/posture.

 

[slowplastic]

Wait, now I'm confused. It just seems like both directions are my femur rotating in my hip joint... "internal" just means rotating the femur towards your center line and "external" just means away from your center line?

This is correct as far as how I've been understanding it.

It still looks like you're trying to rotate your hips/lower body in those throws, which is the major thing I see apart from going over the top and not being inside your plant enough. I find it feels more like shifting directly at the target from the instep of my rear foot. You end up rolling off the instep and being in that toes down/heel up position for that foot with the knee under your hip. This momentum and weight shift causes the hips to clear which opens things up and the feeling travels up your torso. You're trying to rotate from the get go it seems, with a shift in there. The timing and feel is different.

As far as feeling like it'll be nose up, remember it's that tilted axis at your waist. So although you're behind the brace, your upper body can still be over your toes. Look at how wide McBeth's stance is and angled his legs are, but how straight his upper body is on most shots.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you look at the first two shots, you can see how GG has braced his knee and hip behind his foot like a skier and consequently his shoulder as well. He is getting ready to deliver/release a blow over his front foot with all his weight/force behind it. Since your knee/hip and shoulder are over the front foot there's nothing really left to leverage and release against.

Now look at the finish, GG's rear hip has rotated/moved forward through the shot and everything is winding around inside the front leg. Your finish is tipped over and the rear hip is trailing.

 

[slowplastic]

The last frame SW22 posted is a feeling I'm familiar with from a few form iterations ago. Trying to drive the rear leg/hip at the target, "shift the weight from behind you"...but things are incorrect so you end up slamming that rear side into the front side. It caused a feeling like I was slamming against a brick wall that was stopping my weight. I could throw some shots decently far like that but there was definitely an impact.

In contrast, GG at the same point in his shot has his left side moved around his plant/brace, but not past it. When you figure out how to make this motion, things just make sense.

 

[banzai7]

It still looks like you're trying to rotate your hips/lower body in those throws, which is the major thing I see apart from going over the top and not being inside your plant enough. I find it feels more like shifting directly at the target from the instep of my rear foot. You end up rolling off the instep and being in that toes down/heel up position for that foot with the knee under your hip. This momentum and weight shift causes the hips to clear which opens things up and the feeling travels up your torso. You're trying to rotate from the get go it seems, with a shift in there. The timing and feel is different.

Yes this seems right to me. Somehow I have some sort of lower body rotation ingrained and I need to get that out of my system. When you say "feeling travels up your torso", what does it feel like? Also are you feeling tightness in your right hip after the weight shift? Does it feel like your knee is stiff and straight?

As far as feeling like it'll be nose up, remember it's that tilted axis at your waist. So although you're behind the brace, your upper body can still be over your toes. Look at how wide McBeth's stance is and angled his legs are, but how straight his upper body is on most shots.

That makes sense. I've decided not to just put nose angle and plane issues out of my mind until I get a proper brace. Then I can fine tune things from there.

 

[banzai7]

If you look at the first two shots, you can see how GG has braced his knee and hip behind his foot like a skier and consequently his shoulder as well. He is getting ready to deliver/release a blow over his front foot with all his weight/force behind it. Since your knee/hip and shoulder are over the front foot there's nothing really left to leverage and release against.

Wow, look at GG in that first frame! It looks so weird how his lower body is forwards and his upper body is so far back. I don't I've ever been that torqued. Also his plant foot is way out front of his hips and shoulders. I can see clearly I'm not doing that. I'll try to work on it. I skied competitively in high school, so I should be able to replicate the body positions. Just not used to doing it with the legs so far apart. Maybe the feeling at the plant is more like a "snowplow", and then you shift into a left turn?

Now look at the finish, GG's rear hip has rotated/moved forward through the shot and everything is winding around inside the front leg. Your finish is tipped over and the rear hip is trailing.

Yup, I'm late with my hips and over the top. This image is definitely helpful; thanks for taking the time.