Beat in Teebirds/ best plastic to throw for low scores

[JacksWeather]

I have somewhere around 400ftish of max D. I have many dx teebirds. When they're new I don't flip them, when they've gotten beat up some they start turning a little. I have 1 dx teebird right now that is very beat up and I flip it so that it hits the ground with like 20 degrees of anhyzer when i put 30 degrees of hyzer on it. I think I do have some torque going on but I'm still wondering, Is there a point where dx discs stop getting more flippy? I think my most beat up teebird is at that point. If there is a point where they stop getting more flippy, how much hyzer would one have to put on it for it not to flip past flat on a 400ft throw? If there isn't a point where dx stops getting more flippy, whats the point in throwing dx plastic (consistency wise)? I was looking at the high rated pro's on team discraft and innova and it seems like they don't use any dx drivers, maybe some kc plastic but i'm not really sure how that stuff beats in. Obviously the good kc plastic isn't easy to come by now adays. So what type of plastic should someone be throwing for consistency? DX changes when it hits an obstacle, pro is pretty much the same, just a little more resilient, and champ and star are "squirrelly". Speaking of champ and star, whats the difference besides opaqueness?

 

[the invisible tree]

I don't think those bags that the pros post are necessarily their bags. It's mostly the discs that their sponsor want to push at that time. They may well carry those discs but it doesn't mean they don't throw other discs as well.

 

[Aaron_D]

Is there a point where dx discs stop getting more flippy?

i dont think so. I have read Blake say that once you have to put more than 45 degrees of hyzer on a disc to make it not crash and burn then its time to retire the disc--unless its your roller.

If there isn't a point where dx stops getting more flippy, whats the point in throwing dx plastic (consistency wise)?

older slower blunt nose drivers last a long time in dx and its easier to get multiple molds of different beatnesses with base plastic. This works really well with putters, mids, and fairway drivers, but most of the super fast modern stuff flies better in premium plastic in my opinion.

So what type of plastic should someone be throwing for consistency?

I would say premium for everything that beats up too fast in dx (sharper edged drivers). The premium plastic holds a similar flight pattern most of its life and ages really slowly. The reason base plastic is advocated by a lot of people here is that it is good to learn how a disc changes and gets more understable. I would also say that base plastic is cheaper and easier to get in lighter weights. Slower, lighter, and more understable discs are better suited for new er players. Once you can throw base plastic discs well then you will develope a preference. I go back and forth all the time.

Right now im on a premium plastic kick after a few months of an all base plastic bag. Im finding that going back and forth teaches you different things each time you switch. Right now my throw is much cleaner than it was thanks to throwing slower more understable drivers. Im able to get a lot more out of my star leopards solfs and sols's now. Anyway, those are some things to ponder about base plastic vs premium.

 

[garublador1]

Is that 400' max D consistant and with a Teebird?

I'd guess that there probably is some sort of OAT issue going on. I find that Teebirds have to get pretty thrashed to be too flippy to throw straight. I've gotten beat DX Teebirds kinda-sorta close to 400' (380' a couple times) and they haven't required more than 20-30 degrees of hyzer to fly like that. Teebirds aren't very forgiving discs. You could try out an Eagle-X if you need something that's more likely to come back until you get the issue fixed.

The suggestion for DX drivers on here is for people still building a full set of disc skills and/or people who need a bit more D from their fairway drivers. That's a vast majority of disc golfers. Top pros don't need extra D and have the skills to manipulate the flight of high end discs. In other words, they have the skill and power to compensate for the disadvantages of high end discs. I'd guess (and someone can confirm) that most, if not all of them gained those skills by throwing low end discs, though.

 

[tushamajig131]

you could always try tuning the disc to restore some stability...its worked on a 168 dx leopard for me, im sure it will work on a teebird

also, if you are getting 400' with a teebird, and flipping one over as badly as you say, there are definitely some OAT issues that should be dealt with...cleaning up your throw will increase the lifespan of your discs

lastly, a little wrist roll will help to fix these issues. theres a thread about it somewhere (cant seem to find it right now) but theres a lot of good info in there

lastly (for real), theres a training assignment that deals with what to do when plastic is "too flippy" try that out and youll probably find that theres a lot of life left in that TB

DX plastic is great for everything that isnt a wide-rimmed driver (and even then, tuning can keep them in working order)...it glides better than any other plastic, has the best grip, and just flies better IMO...an all premium plastic bag, while it may last longer, will not teach proper technique. also, using lower grade plastics help reduce mold counts by filling spots with beat versions of other discs

 

[dflaschiii]

Flippy TBs do everything a regular TBs do, just without the same distance. Use a newer TB for your 350-400 range, and use the flippy one from 300-350.

Beaten DX TBs and Firebirds are really accurate within 300ft, especially in the woods where there are low ceilings and tight turns. They also get huge anny lines, long spike hyzers, and rollers.

With three DX TBs in different stages of wear you can hit virtually any line from 250-400ft. I don't think it's any more expensive to cycle through DX than it is to buy Star/Champ, and it's better for your game in the long run.

 

[garublador1]

Flippy TBs do everything a regular TBs do, just without the same distance. Use a newer TB for your 350-400 range, and use the flippy one from 300-350.

I have the exact opposite findings. Beat Teebirds go farther for me.

 

[dflaschiii]

Flippy TBs do everything a regular TBs do, just without the same distance. Use a newer TB for your 350-400 range, and use the flippy one from 300-350.

I have the exact opposite findings. Beat Teebirds go farther for me.

By "flippy" I meant beyond beat, thrashed to the point where it turns over if you give it 100% power. I agree a beat-in TB gets the most D, where newish TB gets best hyzer lines.

 

[JacksWeather]

I realize teebirds and other older great discs (sincerely i really like teebird and eagle) were designed for dx plastic. I understand dx discs are more grippy, less smooth and hence less squirrely, can beat in to have less fade. I understand its good to learn how to drive with understable discs so that you're not learning the high speed/overstable roll over torque technique when you're developing your driving muscle memory.

Isn't consistency what matters for control? High end plastic keeping its flight characteristics longer than low end plastics should make them more consistent discs to throw with. Consistent flight paths are advantageous in learning how to control a disc. Which improves technique (including distance) but more importantly control gets you lower scores in competition. Why would you want to have a disc in your bag that is changing its flight characteristics faster than other discs would?

Are we saying that the amount a high end disc slows down the change of flight characteristics isn't significant enough to account for squirrellyness, worse feel/grip, and a harder fade?

Lastly, this is probably the biggest problem with my torque, but when you beat up a teebird, does the fade really decrease significantly enough to create a longer,straighter throw when the high speed resist is also decreasing?

 

[JacksWeather]

Almost seems like only point of dx discs is to teach how to throw with truly understable discs, and to add on that little bit of extra distance due to low fade in distance competitions.

 

[garublador1]

I realize teebirds and other older great discs (sincerely i really like teebird and eagle) were designed for dx plastic. I understand dx discs are more grippy, less smooth and hence less squirrely, can beat in to have less fade. I understand its good to learn how to drive with understable discs so that you're not learning the high speed/overstable roll over torque technique when you're developing your driving muscle memory.

Isn't consistency what matters for control? High end plastic keeping its flight characteristics longer than low end plastics should make them more consistent discs to throw with. Consistent flight paths are advantageous in learning how to control a disc. Which improves technique (including distance) but more importantly control gets you lower scores in competition. Why would you want to have a disc in your bag that is changing its flight characteristics faster than other discs would?

Are we saying that the amount a high end disc slows down the change of flight characteristics isn't significant enough to account for squirrellyness, worse feel/grip, and a harder fade?

Lastly, this is probably the biggest problem with my torque, but when you beat up a teebird, does the fade really decrease significantly enough to create a longer,straighter throw when the high speed resist is also decreasing?

I believe you are making a couple incorrect assumptions.

First, you're assuming DX discs break in at the same rate throughout their life. This is not the case. Most disc tend to go from new to slightly broken in really quick, from slightly broken in to nicely broken in after a while and then from nicely broken in to flippy after a long time. That nicely broken in stage is where slower drivers with stabilizers, mids and putters are their best and really do stay that way for quite a while. I've never gotten a Roc, Wizard, Teebird or Gazelle past this stage. Even the fast discs that break in quickly stay in this stage for a relatively long time, it's just that this isn't a good stage for them. Really the advantage of high end plastic is to avoid getting to this stage and to stay in the slightly beat stage as long as possible. They will get to this stage, though and many discs don't do well here.

Second you're assuming high end plastics and low end plastics beat in the same and that HSS and LSS is lost at the same rate. Low end discs tend to loose their LSS faster than their HSS which does lead to a longer, straighter, easier to control flight. High end discs tend to loose their LSS faster which leads to a flippier flight with more fade that's harder to control.

Third, you're assuming this all happens rather quickly. Granted, some blends of the low end plastic break in faster than others, but it takes me several rounds of only using a single DX Teebird for drives to get to where they're in the stage where they've lost most of their LSS. This speeds up the breaking in by at least 5-6 times since I'd normally throw a different disc for many of those drives. Once you consider that having a few discs in different stages of wear cuts down on the number of throws it's apparent that each disc will take a pretty long time to go from striaght to flippy. I don't play that much, but I'd put it on the order of seasons, not months or weeks.

Unfortunately, the Teebird isn't a great example of any of this because of how unforgiving it is. Even a small bit of OAT can make a really straight Teebird appear flippy. This stuff is much easier to observe with something like a D Cyclone, DX Gazelle or DX Eagle-X.

 

[Spinach D1]

So what type of plastic should someone be throwing for consistency? DX changes when it hits an obstacle, pro is pretty much the same, just a little more resilient, and champ and star are "squirrelly". Speaking of champ and star, whats the difference besides opaqueness?

I would say both champ and star are a lot more consistent than DX plastic, even when if you take wear out of the equation.

Champ bascially stays new for a very long time. Star has a better grip, beats in a little bit, but does not warp or change shape like Pro or DX plastic. I like the Star TeeBird vs. the champ because I feel I can manipulate it's flight path a little better.

Personally, I like a 175 star teebird and a 175 star eagle (more LSS). Between them, they offer similar feel but a bunch of consitent, valuable lines.

 

[uNicedmeMan1]

i wants to get a stack of dx eagle-x's sooo bad.

 

[Micah1]

I prefer working in champ and or star teebirds. They do have a much longer rate of change and for me this allows me to develop with my plastic, one huge downside comes when you loose a beat up disc in champ plastic. It can take 3 years easy to beat in a new one. Even if you have discs in rotation it takes a long time. Dx is great if you need to replace a champ or star disc while you prep another one. Dx also grips the best in the rain and I feel rolls better than champ or star plastic because of how it absorbs bounces.

 

[mark12b]

i wants to get a stack of dx eagle-x's sooo bad.

ah, speak of the devil... i just got a stack of matching dx ex's today, 4 white and 4 purple. discgolfvalues.com has them from the new run (i emailed mark@ there ahead of time to make sure i wouldn't get ELs from their old stock).

 

[JacksWeather]

garublador: Thanks, you answered alot of questions I was trying to ask but not sure if I actually was. I wasn't assuming anything, thats what I made this thread.

One thing I don't get really though is the having lots of one mold in different stages of wear. That makes you learn lots of different flight patterns, why not have lots of one mold all at the same stage of wear. If one hits a tree or gets more beat, take it out of the rotation for awhile.

I guess when I think about it also, I really don't know how to measure how much LSS changes. Its easy to tell when a disc is flipping earlier and harder, but not so easy to tell when its fading later, how can I be sure i just didn't put as much spin on the disc or maybe its fading with a little different nose angle or speed than another throw. Its hard to judge those things. Any advice on how to judge the change of LSS?

 

[garublador1]

garublador: Thanks, you answered alot of questions I was trying to ask but not sure if I actually was. I wasn't assuming anything, thats what I made this thread.

I was just pointing out the incorrect assumptions in the hypothetical argument you presented. It's actually a pretty common argument. I pretty much had to be told and learned all that stuff after starting with the argument you presented, too. Sometimes it's hard to convice pepople because it is a bit counterintuitive.

I'll make an adendum to what I wrote before, especally concerning the Teebird. Sometimes discs in a run don't mold up as well as they could have. This can lead to discs that don't necessarily fly as intended. I know there are a bunch of Teebirds in a softer blend of DX that aren't as good after they break in. There's also a bunch of DX Gazelles that didn't mold up right and are pretty flippy. Part of fniding stuff like that is coming on boards like this and listening to others who's opinions you trust. Personally I've observed that this happens less with low end plastic than with the expensive stuff (listen to how pepole talk about Z Flashes, Z Buzzzes, E Illusions or Champ Rocs), but does seem to happen across the board.

One thing I don't get really though is the having lots of one mold in different stages of wear. That makes you learn lots of different flight patterns, why not have lots of one mold all at the same stage of wear. If one hits a tree or gets more beat, take it out of the rotation for awhile.

The point of having discs in different stages of wear is that you can get lots of different flight patterns. I don't have the arm to hyzer flip a new Teebird in a tailwind but that's not nearly as difficult with a beat one. You can force a new DX Gazelle into a gentle turn but it will fade at the end. You can also force a beat one into a turn (which will be easier to do) and it won't fade at the end. Both of those shots can be very useful and you only need one mold to do both. By the time you've gotten a disc beat in you should be pretty confident in knowing what it will do. Having the skills to control wrist roll, hyzer and nose angles is a huge part of this.

I guess when I think about it also, I really don't know how to measure how much LSS changes. Its easy to tell when a disc is flipping earlier and harder, but not so easy to tell when its fading later, how can I be sure i just didn't put as much spin on the disc or maybe its fading with a little different nose angle or speed than another throw. Its hard to judge those things. Any advice on how to judge the change of LSS?

You have a very good point. It is difficult to tell how a disc flies when you aren't sure of your technique. I tend to judge based on several throws rather than just one and weight my good throws heavier than the bad ones. If you use predictable discs and get good at troubleshooting your own technique it gets easier to judge how a disc flies.