BillyJackO's Form Adventure*

[billyjacko]

This is a phenomenal jump in form in the space of a few days for a player with ingrained habits.

Thank you so much! Your video on bracing is what really got the ball rolling for me a few months ago. For me, there wasn't a 'click' moment, but a culmination of watching videos like yours, Loopghost's, and Seabas22's then doing tons of field work and RECORDING IT that's helped me get to this point. I may need to get a bigger SD card so I can video myself throw all the time now. It seems that important. There's still a ton of work to do!

You're looking a ton better - but I think you're "mushing" a bit.

I can definitely see that. It looks like I absorb pretty much my entire weight on the left leg and almost all forward momentum stops. I'm basically doing a one step stand still at that point. Another thing that seems to happen with this, I "hit the break" which causes me to go over the top. My hope is as I get more comfortable with the brace and throwing with my hips, I can stop exaggerating the hop, and go to a more traditional x-step that has just a small amount of hop.

 

[billyjacko]

Side view, Hyzerflipping a proxy out to maybe over 300'. It's an unmeasured field for me.

 

[billyjacko]

Definitely seeing improvement here. http://imgur.com/a/i92M9

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, definite improvement. Now see how you have both feet flat/heels on ground and Robbie is on both toes in more athletic stance. Your head is turned back, maybe too far(debatable), but your shoulders(and hips) are still not turned back nearly as far Robbie who is in deep Door Frame/tug of war Position and ready to really Crush the Can with his heel/weight and the whole front side turned/loaded further back into the rear side.

 

[billyjacko]

Now see how you have both feet flat/heels on ground

The first thing I thought when watching this was how flat footed I looked at the plant. I'm sure getting into that stance will allow for a better reach back and getting more hip torque. I'm guessing it allows you to start the weight shift a little earlier as your already set to 'push the gas peddle'.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not just stepping on the gas peddle from the rear side, but also your ability to control your weight aka ride the Bull (balance) on the front side through the front foot and brace and clear your front hip redirecting your linear momentum to rotational momentum and speed up via changing acceleration/direction. You need some plantar flexion on the front foot to resist collapsing posture and maintain balance from your weight shift. The front foot will go into plantar extension/dorsiflexion, but it's mostly resisting it before you crush the can, then releases and goes with it in the pivot.

See Riding the Bull/Turbo Encabulator and The Move part 2 Ben Hogan Pivot in post #14, and Crush the Can part 2.1 and Bottles and Cans.

 

[billyjacko]

Did a couple with the towel trying to reach back further and stay on my toes. They felt great, but looking at them it seems like I'm a little late. I think I'm getting the loading on the back leg down, but it still seems like my plant foot isn't fully loaded. It's like the foots turned in, but not the hips. IDK.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think it's mainly due to your balance in the backswing and how you are trying to crank back/up with your rear arm and leaning over the rear leg to counter balance or vise versa. Turn more centered/upright inside your posture and keep the rear arm in - put hand in pocket.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Just want to give OP props for the improvement - I'm dealing with similar issues that you had earlier (throwing from rear foot/strong arming) and this gives me hope! Cheers

 

[billyjacko]

Just want to give OP props for the improvement

Thanks man. Best advice I can give is stop thinking of where your form is good, and start concentrating on where it's bad. Record yourself and post it for critique!

On that note,

I think it's mainly due to your balance in the backswing and how you are trying to crank back/up with your rear arm and leaning over the rear leg to counter balance or vise versa. Turn more centered/upright inside your posture and keep the rear arm in - put hand in pocket.

Okay, so I tried keeping my hand in my pocket, on the inside of my thigh, and resting on my hip. In all three cases I could not get my plant down at all. It's like that swinging cue from off hand is what starts the whole chain for me. To get more upright and keep that arm tighter, I found leading the the backswing rotation with my elbow and then keeping my forearm tight helped immensely. Let me know what you think.

 

[sidewinder22]

Slightly better - less Michael Jackson thriller in there. Your body should pivot into the backswing. Cranking the elbow is a bad crutch. Your elbow then reverses away from your weight in the forward swing. The forward swing is initiated by your weightshift.

 

[billyjacko]

Cranking the elbow is a bad crutch. Your elbow then reverses away from your weight in the forward swing.

So I've been watching a bunch of pros throw, and specifically watching their off arm in the backswing. It seems like the upper body back swing is where most of the big throwers have their own style. From tight to the body, to full on Thriller, there doesn't seem to be a tried and true one way to do it. I can see how keeping tight to the body will give you better balance and control, but I can also see how getting the arm out further will give you more inertia heading into the plant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a bit of whatever you feel most comfortable with. Check out lizotte here.

Also, I'm embedding thriller in this thread, because I love the reference.

 

[Zphix]

So I've been watching a bunch of pros throw, and specifically watching their off arm in the backswing. It seems like the upper body back swing is where most of the big throwers have their own style. From tight to the body, to full on Thriller, there doesn't seem to be a tried and true one way to do it. I can see how keeping tight to the body will give you better balance and control, but I can also see how getting the arm out further will give you more inertia heading into the plant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a bit of whatever you feel most comfortable with. Check out lizotte here.

Could be wrong but I think SW is focusing on how your left elbow is coming out of your posture. While Simon does also have a "Thriller" arm, his elbow is kept tucked to his body and all he's doing is dropping his arm from his elbow down to essentially put his non-throwing hand in his pocket. By the time he's at his hit point, his hand is already in the right position over his pocket/close to his groin.

Also, something to think about, planting with more inertia doesn't do much if your balance is thrown off in the process. From what it looks like to me, you're like an ice skater trying to spin with an arm out wide.

 

[billyjacko]

his elbow is kept tucked to his body and all he's doing is dropping his arm

I think this is what I was missing from the conversation. What I'm doing is throwing a bunch of weight in the opposite direction, and I think that might be what's causing my to be late on the weight shift. I do feel like I'm getting my arm/hand into position, but it's way late. I'll have to keep working on it and see if I can figure it out.

 

[billyjacko]

Recorded some more towelz. Trying to keep the elbow more inside and drive the hand downward. The timing felt better, and honestly the swings felt faster, but I still think I'm a little late. It looks like I'm still swinging the upper arm out a little bit, but I'm not sure how much of an issue that is.

Standstill


With a lazy x-step. This one looks pretty promising though. Probably the most powerful and controlled looking pull I've videoed. I don't think the slippery shoes and laminate floors are doing me any favors, but it looks like I'm leaking weight over my foot as I'm finishing on my toes. I guess it all doesn't really matter until I hit a field with some frisbee.



Side Views

 

[billyjacko]

This makes me giddy right here

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess it depends on what thriller move, I was thinking more of this with the elbow high and out.

While I would recommend more of this thriller move keeping the elbow in like MJ and Lizotte and notice MJ is rotating his body in this move and not in the one above:

 

[billyjacko]

While I would recommend more of this thriller move keeping the elbow in like MJ and Lizotte and notice MJ is rotating his body in this move and not in the one above

OMG, this is the best form critique EVER

 

[Zphix]

Billy,

One other thing I've noticed especially because we're working on the same things is planting with your off-hand close to your groin. I was messing around with tucking my elbow out and the extra upper body rotation you get pulling on a straight line makes it easier to plant into a closed stance it seems like. SW, is that why you called it a crutch?

I can't throw if I tuck my elbow out at all. However, over these last 2-3 weeks I've been working on shifting my weight properly and I've noticed a few things. In order to plant correctly into a closed stance (while my arm is kept tucked at my groin) it feels like I really have to step out farther and rotate my heel more. For a long time I felt like I was planting closed, it really felt like my femur/toes/plant was correct and it wasn't. For months I was perplexed about why, on video, I was always planting open when it honestly felt like I wasn't. You might have the same issue since you said when you keep your arm tucked to your groin it feels like you can't plant. I learned to step out wider and really lead with my butt in order to get the correct plant. Basically, if it feels right then go a little farther. Just something you might want to experiment with and check out.

-Richard

 

[sidewinder22]

I was messing around with tucking my elbow out and the extra upper body rotation you get pulling on a straight line makes it easier to plant into a closed stance it seems like. SW, is that why you called it a crutch?

You're previous post was correct.

It's fake sequenced x-factor separation in the backswing from the upstairs, instead of real x-factor which happens in the forward swing/transition from the ground up.