BillyJackO's Form Adventure*

[billyjacko]

One other thing I've noticed especially because we're working on the same things is planting with your off-hand close to your groin.

I have to disagree here. You have the arm off and out of the way during the reach back, then you plant, then you drive the hand downward as you pull and rotate into the pocket.

 

[Zphix]

I have to disagree here. You have the arm off and out of the way during the reach back, then you plant, then you drive the hand downward as you pull and rotate into the pocket.

Good call. I'm actually a lot more like Koling. Never even noticed that my off hand moves, but I keep my elbow tucked in and my elbow to forearm looks exactly like Koling's.

Either way, I definitely have to rotate more than I think in order to plant correctly. Just something you might want to play around with - it's certainly a weird feeling that I've had to get used to.

 

[sidewinder22]

I have to disagree here. You have the arm off and out of the way during the reach back, then you plant, then you drive the hand downward as you pull and rotate into the pocket.

It moves your shoulder/weight forward into the plant/brace crushing the can - watch Paige Pierce. There are a couple different methods, try Linus Astrom's overhead swim move. If you have back issues, then Marc Jarvis's hand on thigh is hands down the best way to reduce lower back torque while providing massive leverage forward - pushing the hand back against the thigh provides more leverage than pushing back/swimming against the air. All of these players are some of the longest throwers on the planet:

 

[billyjacko]

It moves your shoulder/weight forward into the plant/brace crushing the can

Thank you for all the Gifs here. It really helps clear things up. The guiding of the weight shift is what I was trying to portray, but you nailed it. The other thing I'm noticing is how the knee coming forward (foot drag drill) is synchronized with the shoulder coming down. Which makes me wonder on this that you said;

It's fake sequenced x-factor separation in the backswing from the upstairs, instead of real x-factor which happens in the forward swing/transition from the ground up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the back leg and off shoulder/upper arm work together to send the weight forward rather than one or the other leading the movement. I'm not well equipped to talk about anatomy, but I'm guessing both movements are tied to the core rotating the spine. Unfurling the torque of the back leg with hip movement, and sending the shoulder down/forward in the process. So, the hip movement is the most important part, and your really wanting to guide the shoulder at the same time. Am I making any sense?

 

[slowplastic]

Is Kallstrom (third gif from bottom) collapsing at all? Or is it a good brace/tilted forward? I do see that he clears his right side back effectively.

I really like the explanation that the extra turn/separation in the backswing is a "fake x-factor", whereas the real one happens when moving forward. Really makes sense and will be good for explaining to people. It's tricky because so many things that feel powerful when you don't know any better, actually aren't helping and in a lot of cases are negative to the rest of the motion.

Billyjacko, I'm also having trouble with the left arm thing. It's something I'm going to keep focusing on as well once my footwork is solid and I can zone it out. But the best throws for me feel like that arm is in and forward so I have somewhere to launch from...it sets up my upper body so that I can just blast my right shoulder, rather than have my left side slow me down.

 

[billyjacko]

It made me think of watching James Conrad play this weekend. When he gives it his all, it totally looks like he's going over the top and leaking power everywhere;
https://youtu.be/tm0bjVP4qxE?t=1234
But if you freeze frame, you can see he's fully braced. It seems like that unconventional style would be difficult to control, but if you've been doing it forever, it'd seem normal.

I'm with you entirely on getting the arm in. The best pulls (with a towel at this point) I have on video are when my off elbow is tight to the body and my hand is near my thigh/groin as/just after the 'disc' passes my off shoulder.

 

[billyjacko]

Wanted to put one more Towel throw in with some less slippery shoes on. I can see I'm starting to tip too far back in my backswing again, but my weight is looking stacked on the plant foot better than I've seen yet. Timing feels good, and I'm reproducing this pull over and over again.

 

[sidewinder22]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the back leg and off shoulder/upper arm work together to send the weight forward rather than one or the other leading the movement. I'm not well equipped to talk about anatomy, but I'm guessing both movements are tied to the core rotating the spine. Unfurling the torque of the back leg with hip movement, and sending the shoulder down/forward in the process. So, the hip movement is the most important part, and your really wanting to guide the shoulder at the same time. Am I making any sense?

I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about x-factor separation in the forward swing starting from the ground up. Real "x-factor" has not much to do with the rear arm, it's simply hips leading shoulders and how much lag angle separation is created during the forward swing from the transition. You can fake x-factor in the backswing by throwing your elbow back around you and the arm then gets dragged around and slung out around you from the transition and slows the upper body/over lags as the arm gets in the way of momentum.

There's certainly overlap in the togetherness of the kinetic chain sequence. The hips have to lead the shoulders forward to brace and balance dynamically and be able to whip the arm. Think of everything as a series of pendulums.

At any rate x-factor separation is not something you want to try and increase(often leads to injury), it's just something that happens naturally. I actually feel like I'm trying reduce x-factor by keeping everything tighter with the rear arm and core/ab muscles so things are working more together and solid/leveraged on the rear side.

 

[sidewinder22]

Is Kallstrom (third gif from bottom) collapsing at all? Or is it a good brace/tilted forward? I do see that he clears his right side back effectively.

It made me think of watching James Conrad play this weekend. When he gives it his all, it totally looks like he's going over the top and leaking power everywhere;
https://youtu.be/tm0bjVP4qxE?t=1234
But if you freeze frame, you can see he's fully braced. It seems like that unconventional style would be difficult to control, but if you've been doing it forever, it'd seem normal.

Right, it's tricky looking at some guys like Kallstrom and JC and Climo. You can see them clear their front hip and their centrifugal force is taking them along their tilted spiral back up. Also lower line drives tend to end up looking more this way as the upper body gets whipped more forward vs distance throws that are thrown with more upward trajectory and upright posture.

 

[billyjacko]

I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about x-factor separation in the forward swing starting from the ground up.

I certainly did not know what you were talking about. After reading a bit about it, I can see how it's something that should happen if your engaging your hips/weight shift in a timed fashion, but it's also something you don't want to press to do. If you time your throw, it will happen naturally.

 

[billyjacko]

I only have an anecdotal update, but I played my first full round since changing my form up, and shot -5 with 6 birds and one bogey. Score aside, the discs were fly much further and to my surprise much more accurately. I was having to disc down 1 or 2 speeds on quite a few holes. I'm going to play my home course tonight for league, so I'll have a better understanding of how much distance has changed. I will also post vids as soon as I get a chance to do field work.

 

[billyjacko]

I forgot to mention that my index finger hurt on the middle of the finger print. I have a pretty wicked callus on the side near the joint, but never experienced pain on the finger print like that.

 

[sidewinder22]

Could be grip pressure. I've found that speed 14 discs and low/shallow height rims tend to cause blood blisters for me.

 

[slowplastic]

I've had the exact same issue. I played with bandaids wrapped on my index finger for probably a year. It stopped happening to me in a painful way now. I agree with SW22 that it was most common on very wide and shallow discs (like the World). It happened from slight early releases most often...getting lots of arm speed and a fraction of a second early slip out leads to some finger burn.

 

[billyjacko]

I got some legitimate field time in today. Discs were flying well, but I was falling into all my old habits. Getting to wide on the plant and ending up horse-stanced were the two most aggravating, but I was also tipping over the top, and reach back was lazy/sloppy. Only spot that really looked better was hip movement into the pocket.

I can tell it's going to take me a while to break these habbits. It's weird because Two days ago I felt untouchable with solid form. I had a few too many beers at league last night and my form fell apart, but I didn't expect it to roll into today.

I'm posting these really only for motivation, as I know most of the issues present. I can tell slowing down helps out with keeping the hips closed because I stay more balanced. Hopefully will have more video tonight.

 

[slowplastic]

Too tense in the backswing, too wide of a step, etc. These things happen I find if you are frustrated you're not hitting the distances you know you should be, so you keep trying harder and harder. I like to then throw an easy shot, like try to throw a sweep hyzer with a mid ~280' or a fairway ~300-315' dead straight. Something that you know should be really simple and not take anything but a smooth throw. This tends to open my eyes to the disc just flying again and then I can slowly add power to it from that point.

 

[billyjacko]

Got some throws in today. Things were feeling really good, and the discs were flying far. These Nova throws were between 290'-300' with a slight left to right cross wind, and they felt effortless.

Looking at the video was a bit discouraging though. I'm spinning out, and my plant is still way too wide causing me to open early and not crush the can. No Hershiser drill to be seen. I think part of the long step may be that I'm late on my reach back. I'm wondering if I get my reach back a little earlier, it will allow me to get rotated fully and plant closed.

On a brighter note, I think I'm starting to understand the 'get fast late' mantra you see a lot. It just feels quicker in the pocket, and I can tell there's a lot less going on in the upper body.

 

[sidewinder22]

Got some throws in today. Things were feeling really good, and the discs were flying far. These Nova throws were between 290'-300' with a slight left to right cross wind, and they felt effortless.

Looking at the video was a bit discouraging though. I'm spinning out, and my plant is still way too wide causing me to open early and not crush the can. No Hershiser drill to be seen. I think part of the long step may be that I'm late on my reach back. I'm wondering if I get my reach back a little earlier, it will allow me to get rotated fully and plant closed.

I'd say you are too early into the backswing and not leveraging your backswing. You hop backward instead of forward. This backward hop move causes your balance and shift to really be wonky. Note how Brinster turns his shoulders back in frame 1, 2, and 3 while your shoulders don't really turn back from frame 1 to 3. Also watch how Brinster keeps his balance and pendulum swing inside his feet.

Frame 1 - Note how Brinster's head is still looking forward and he is pumping his swing forward with the shoulder and elbow and not started the backswing yet - he hopped facing forward and hips squared perpendicular. Your head is already turned backward and started the backswing - you hopped facing backward and hips backward already - you have nothing left to load in to.

Frame 2 - Who's ready for toast! Steve would murder you in a tug of war here and toss you around like rag doll. Note how Brinster's left shoulder and head is leveraged inside/forward of his left foot and knee. He is turning back upright inside his posture and swinging the disc back like it weighs a ton/door frame/sledgehammer. You are leaning your whole body behind your left foot, rear knee and shoulder and head behind rear ankle = leverage cooked and only leaves you tipping available. You are over heaving your balance and posture in the backswing like the disc weighs nothing. If you tried to swing a sledgehammer back this way it would throw you back away from the target and likely shred your elbow joint through the transition forward from the massive jerk force/whip you about to set upon it. You want to be slow and smooth and deliberate through the transition - speed/force happens from the whip through impact/hit.

Frame 3 - Note how Brinster is further turned back inside his posture and upright balanced and athletic, his elbow is stacked/leveraged over his rear knee, disc behind rear foot - he is still holding on to the door frame with relaxed arm, but still tensioned taut and really leading with all his weight see how much forward his rear knee is from the ankle. Your front shoulder and elbow are pulled away from your rear knee and your knee has not made much positive forward move from your ankle meanwhile your disc has already moved about a foot forward as it already forward of your rear foot. Your arm has already maxed tensioned as the disc moved forward and overcommitted your balance and posture.

Frame 4 - Note how Brinster's rear knee had swiveled forward under the hip and all his rear side weight/arm is being smashed forward into the front side as his weight was all sent forward leveraged from the ground up. Also note his front foot is perpendicular to his arm swing. You are tipping over and your rear side weight/arm/leg are being dragged around/behind you instead of being smashed forward. Your front foot is nearly inline to your arm swing.

Frame 5 - Note how Brinster is finished with his rear foot still braced behind him and smashed his rear shoulder/weight through to the front foot and his throwing hand has smashed through the swing to finish right over the rear foot = max swing extension through your spine axis from rear foot to throwing hand. His hips are square to the target. We can see your rear foot and hip/axis have swung around you with your hand effectively shortening your swing through impact and over-rotated, instead of bracing and countering the rear side/weight to max extension and release of the throwing arm.

 

[billyjacko]

I'd say you are too early into the backswing and not leveraging your backswing.

Frame 2 - Note how Brinster's left shoulder and head is leveraged inside/forward of his left foot and knee. He is turning back upright inside his posture and swinging the disc back like it weighs a ton/door frame/sledgehammer. You are leaning your whole body behind your left foot, rear knee and shoulder and head behind rear ankle = leverage cooked and only leaves you tipping available.

Earlier from slowplastic.

Too tense in the backswing

So I spent the day throwing a sledge hammer between yard work chores (my neighbors now think I'm crazy, thank you Seabas22) and thinking desperately how to get my reach back to be smoother. Everything was telling me that's where the issues with weight shift, balance and finish all start. I was watching Danny Lindhal's latest video on nose angle, and he talks about keeping the shoulders loose. I remember reading Slowplastic's quick quip about being too tense (it's really obvious on video) and started practicing it. I slowed the run up down, was holding the disc with two hands until the back leg hit the ground, and concentrated on dipping the right shoulder down like I was swinging the sledge earlier. I could feel the shoulder move with the hips rotating in rather than being an independent motion. Really everything felt smoother, and the discs were flying.

I wasn't able to get vid of me throwing plastic as I had my kids with me at the park, but I wanted to share a couple towel 'throws' with these same adjustments, and I feel like I'm getting it back. I can see the more upright approach is getting me flat footed again, and it generally doesn't look very athletic, but it looks a lot less wonky as SW so eloquently put it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looking better. Your towel should whip level or slightly upward, you are significantly downward/air bounce.