Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[sidewinder22]

You are swinging too early before your pressure shifts forward. Don't worry about your plant foot angle, you need to get your foot more underneath you - balance/posture. Your shoulders are turning very flat and forward early and arm bends before you plant/shift instead of being lagged and pulled back taut all the way into the plant - door frame drills. You are hanging on the door frame maxed out well before you could plant.

You need to tilt forward at the hips so chest is more over the swing and shoulders swing more vertical over knees toward camera/left tee, and stride your front foot underneath you inside shoulders/head. Your front foot is planting too far to the left tee side away from your head and your pressure shifts very slow into the heel, need to land more dynamic stacked inline/balanced like you want to reverse direction quickly, stick your front foot into the ground like a shifty running back.

 

[Melonhusk]

Thanks for the detail, seems like it's really just the same things I've been struggling with all along - not quite committing to that last step, staying back too much on that back leg and then getting too eager to swing before I'm grounded. Hard thing to kick apparently!

 

[Melonhusk]

Well, today I just committed to feeling really weird when I threw, and I think it worked! It took until the last throw to really not pull taut until after heel strike, but along the way a lot of throws that weren't quite there but almost there felt really effortless too. It felt so strange though, like a whole new paradigm of throwing for my body. Every throw that was good felt bad and every throw that was bad felt normal. I would throw, and immediately think "well I screwed that one up" and then see the disc rocketing away. I think the plant step being so intentional is really what's screwing with me, I'm used to doing my backswing, and then the plant just sort of "happens". This to me feels like the plant is interrupting the backswing, when really it's just finally getting things more in sequence. Anyway, still a lot of work to do but I felt like this was important progress today. And no more weird elbow whiplash pain, so that was great too.

Here's the best one:



I'm wondering if my plant leg collapsed a bit?

I'm also noticing that even with this change, my shoulder is still doing the thing where it sort of goes from low to high, if that makes sense, like this:

instead of straight towards the target. That's been something I've noticed for a long time; I've tried to address it but just not sure how to think of things differently so that doesn't happen.

 

[sidewinder22]

Somewhat better. You need to lean/drive more aggressively targetward over right leg going into x-step/hop. You are too upright or behind your right foot(and left foot) and slowing down. This should help you shift pressure quicker into the plant so you don't have to try to delay the swing so much. It will probably feel like you are being rushed. Note how JohnE looks like his shoulder is being used as a battering ram. His lower body is then sent forward underneath the upper body into the plant.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ah, ok. Yeah I'm sure it will feel rushed, even what I did when I took that video felt very rushed haha.

So I've been trying to model my body alignment after this image you included of Eagle

and it seems like at least with respect to the angle of my shoulders I was pretty much doing that, definitely different from JohnE. Do you think the way JohnE does it is better, or do you think just for my situation, where I'm struggling so much to keep my momentum moving forward, that getting a bit more of a forward lean will help?

Also, is JohnE rocking the hips when he does that? It seems like he's sort of keeping them rocked forward, and then obviously when he plants into the throw they'll rock back. Maybe that's all that really matters though.

 

[Melonhusk]

My PT cleared me to play again, so I've been out at the course the past month, but I finally filmed a round to see where my form's at. The angles are not all the best, but hopefully with all of them taken together there's something there.



Some things I can see are that it looks like my head is the first thing to come forward, and my off arm doesn't seem to really be helping that much (though it also doesn't look like it's hurting too much, maybe just along for the ride). My upper body looks iffy, but I think for my x steps I may have improved with getting my left foot more underneath me, rather than in front and slowing me down?

Something does seem off with my footwork and balance though. Those first couple shots I was fairly balanced on my plant leg after throwing, but as the round goes on I start falling hard to my left leg after releasing the disc. Not sure of the significance but I noticed it and it didn't feel right.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Like the Jpark footage. :thmbup:

Spinning your wheels out. Note how my feet don't spin or twist in my practice swings. My core is more engaged with abs and glutes lower back is flatter is slight flexion navel tucked to pelvis, your core abs/glutes appear less engaged and lower spine more extended and pelvis tilted down anteriorly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[Melonhusk]

Haha thanks! Home course, finally getting to play it.

I definitely see both of those things on their own - are they related, the spine/hip posture and spinning my feet in practice swings, and if so how so? And what is the significance of my feet spinning too easily, does that basically mean my contact with the ground on my plant foot isn't strong enough?

I watched the linked clip too, definitely makes sense, the equal and opposite and how if I'm pushing against the wall and I let my back leg do its thing it should really get my balance more centered. How would that be realized though - more acceleration through the hit?

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Haha thanks! Home course, finally getting to play it.

I definitely see both of those things on their own - are they related, the spine/hip posture and spinning my feet in practice swings, and if so how so? And what is the significance of my feet spinning too easily, does that basically mean my contact with the ground on my plant foot isn't strong enough?

I watched the linked clip too, definitely makes sense, the equal and opposite and how if I'm pushing against the wall and I let my back leg do its thing it should really get my balance more centered. How would that be realized though - more acceleration through the hit?

Thanks!

Might be related. Your feet need to grip the ground for leverage as your swing momentum should be trying to pull or spin or pivot your feet.

 

[Melonhusk]

I went and played today, and while I was trying to work on all these things something in the hershyzer video inspired me to try using my left arm more, as a way to fix the equal/opposite balance issue. I was throwing standstills mostly, and sure enough every time I remembered to swim, I was in no danger of falling to the left. On some of them I actually had the opposite problem, my brace pushing me back and to the right. Wish I got video to see what I was actually doing vs what I felt I was doing, but there definitely seemed to be an effect on my balance in using my left arm more.

 

[Melonhusk]

Took some more videos on the course today, felt pretty lost with my backhand unfortunately! I was trying to incorporate this feeling:



because I still feel like at the best of times I'm just sort of "falling" into the plant, instead of being coiled up on the rear leg and stepping purposefully. When it feels like I'm doing that, I'm actually getting stuck on the back leg. But that video made sense to me, so I was giving that a try. I was also trying to fix the spine problem/engage the abs and glutes more but not sure how I did with that. Unfortunately the left arm stuff went out the window, but I guess you can only focus on so much!

Two things made me feel lost - one, not very much power. Felt like the disc was only moving as fast as my arm if you know what I mean. The main thing though was I had no idea where the disc was going. For clarity's sake in the video I've annotated which direction the miss was, if there was a miss. Mostly the miss was late.

The thing is, watching the video back I can see clearly my body putting itself in a position to release late - but I can't see why, or how to fix it. Maybe it's my head turning forward too early? Or my shoulders turned back enough? Anyway, something was very off.



I'd like to stop doing all that twitchy stuff before I throw, though I know it's just because I'm overthinking it and getting all tied up. Can't be helping, though.

 

[sidewinder22]

1st pic is top of backswing, your rear knee is severely bent so your pelvis is jammed from turning/swinging back and preventing shoulders from turning/swinging back behind your chin, the rear knee must extend/levitate body in backswing to provide a post in order to turn everything back. You also stomp flat footed into your front heel first before toes/instep plant. Note how tall and extended my legs are and butt facing target shoulders swung back behind chin. Need to swing the battering ram back behind you and levitate it, if you want to use it's weight and gravity to effortlessly pound thru a door with it.

2nd pic is going into the practice hit, your front leg is collapsing and your body is falling/collapsing down over it and spinning everything out as your rear knee extended in the forward swing instead of backswing. Note how I'm standing up stacked up on front ankle, knee and hip and pelvis is still closed and rear leg went from extended to slightly flexed. When you stand up on your front hip(and rear leg in backswing) it will likely feel very weird to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk#t=6m57s

 

[Melonhusk]

Is it an issue of not extending my leg at the right time? I think I was trying to emulate this sort of position:

but I'm sure they're doing it in a different way. Is it just about getting the extension before the plant happens, so there's time to "levitate the battering ram"?

Also just so I understand, by stacked on your front ankle do you mean your weight is sort of more "forward" on that foot, as in towards your toes? That looks like what I'm seeing in the second picture of your throw.

It's wild to me how in that screengrab, everything about my positioning says I was aiming way off to the right, where I threw it. But in my mind I was lining up about 20 degrees left of that, where my head is pointing.

I'll have to revisit the battering ram video and crush the can, thanks as always!

 

[sidewinder22]

Is it an issue of not extending my leg at the right time? I think I was trying to emulate this sort of position:

but I'm sure they're doing it in a different way. Is it just about getting the extension before the plant happens, so there's time to "levitate the battering ram"?

Also just so I understand, by stacked on your front ankle do you mean your weight is sort of more "forward" on that foot, as in towards your toes? That looks like what I'm seeing in the second picture of your throw.

It's wild to me how in that screengrab, everything about my positioning says I was aiming way off to the right, where I threw it. But in my mind I was lining up about 20 degrees left of that, where my head is pointing.

I'll have to revisit the battering ram video and crush the can, thanks as always!

Correct, you are bending/collapsing your knees out of tune or rhythm or timing or sequence to the swing. You need to stand/brace up your posture resisting against the pull of gravity into the ground vertically and the pull of the swing momentum horizontally like Olympic Hammer Thrower. Knees should be doing opposite or reciprocal of each other like walking or running or skating, one bends, while other extends, not bending both knees together unless your feet are together.

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah, dang that really is it isn't it, keeping the tension vertically as well as horizontally. I feel like I always have a hard time feeling the "weight" in at least one of those two directions.

Incidentally, I think Adam Hammes' revamped form has a good visualization of that. I don't know enough to know how optimal his mechanics are in their totality, but one thing I do notice is how exaggerated he is in getting up high on his back leg, extended, and also in how he swings his shoulder under his chin. He's become one of the further throwers these days it seems like. Timestamp:

https://youtu.be/Y896C27WuLs?t=566

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, dang that really is it isn't it, keeping the tension vertically as well as horizontally. I feel like I always have a hard time feeling the "weight" in at least one of those two directions.

Incidentally, I think Adam Hammes' revamped form has a good visualization of that. I don't know enough to know how optimal his mechanics are in their totality, but one thing I do notice is how exaggerated he is in getting up high on his back leg, extended, and also in how he swings his shoulder under his chin. He's become one of the further throwers these days it seems like. Timestamp:

https://youtu.be/Y896C27WuLs?t=566

Funny I was just analyzing all those guys on that exact hole and really took notice of Adam on that one. They all smash. Rick's form is really is really cool to watch on that, looks like he is turning a steering wheel/disc as his heel plants. His arm/wrist uncoil around the disc as the disc lags behind his drop into the plant taking out any slack.

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah, I thought of that hole right away because last year Eagle hit the tree line with probably 150 feet of steam left:

https://youtu.be/qxWauiAd-Nk?t=602

which seemed completely incomprehensible, and then this year he and Adam and Rick all got down the hill. To me I think what really sticks out about Adam is he looks like he's throwing something heavier than a disc. Kyle Klein has that too, I think.

I see what you mean about Ricky sort of uncoiling his wrist as he plants. Do you think there should be a sense of "reaching" with the arm as you plant, or should that arm feel more just suspended weightless, and then have the slack taken out by the forward move? Someone like Eagle looks like he's reaching, someone like Calvin or Seppo more the second option, Ricky sort of looks like he's doing both. I'm guessing whatever you feel in the shoulder is more important than what you feel in the arm?

 

[lostDoughnut]

this thread really helped me out on how the rear leg, trail leg, drive leg, your left leg should move

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137173

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, I thought of that hole right away because last year Eagle hit the tree line with probably 150 feet of steam left:

https://youtu.be/qxWauiAd-Nk?t=602

which seemed completely incomprehensible, and then this year he and Adam and Rick all got down the hill. To me I think what really sticks out about Adam is he looks like he's throwing something heavier than a disc. Kyle Klein has that too, I think.

I see what you mean about Ricky sort of uncoiling his wrist as he plants. Do you think there should be a sense of "reaching" with the arm as you plant, or should that arm feel more just suspended weightless, and then have the slack taken out by the forward move? Someone like Eagle looks like he's reaching, someone like Calvin or Seppo more the second option, Ricky sort of looks like he's doing both. I'm guessing whatever you feel in the shoulder is more important than what you feel in the arm?

Yeah, Adam and Kyle and GG have a very heavy looking backswing as they get wound up really far in the torso.

Correct, there's a couple different styles of backswing, play around with them. I was messing around with Rick's form today and had some of the longest shots I've ever seen on couple holes. I could see the steering wheel happening as I lag the disc and then it's gone!

 

[Melonhusk]

Well I shall have to play with this steering wheel idea, though it's probably a bit more advanced than I need to be worrying about.