Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[sidewinder22]

It looks like you are reaching down instead of back. When your elbow bends the arm/disc go upward over the elbow and more behind your body, instead of more forward behind the elbow and ahead of the body.

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah, definitely. I think lately I've been finding when I bring the disc up high I have a harder time feeling the "taut" feeling against my back/obliques, and my shoulder starts to compensate and lift up. I know that's not ideal, though, just haven't figured out the right feeling yet. Is the disc being behind my body what's causing all those early releases, do you think?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, definitely. I think lately I've been finding when I bring the disc up high I have a harder time feeling the "taut" feeling against my back/obliques, and my shoulder starts to compensate and lift up. I know that's not ideal, though, just haven't figured out the right feeling yet. Is the disc being behind my body what's causing all those early releases, do you think?

I think it's how your shoulder/arm/disc rotates. You are externally rotating/supinating coming into the power pocket, instead of either staying internally rotated or going from external to internal into the power pocket.

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah you're right, huh. I don't really know how to flip that around, it's not something I do intentionally. There was a while where I was all internal rotation I think, even at the top of the backswing, and then I know getting into external rotation at the top of the backswing seemed to help with loading up my shoulder. I guess I'm not getting back to internal once I get to external? Is there a good way to work on that? Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah you're right, huh. I don't really know how to flip that around, it's not something I do intentionally. There was a while where I was all internal rotation I think, even at the top of the backswing, and then I know getting into external rotation at the top of the backswing seemed to help with loading up my shoulder. I guess I'm not getting back to internal once I get to external? Is there a good way to work on that? Thanks!

Swing/pound a hammer in slow motion with the elbow up and thumb pushing the back of the handle. Hold the disc 90 degrees and fan the air to the target, so all the pressure is loaded against the thumb.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Yeah, whenever I'm struggling with late releases it seems like this is at the root of it.





The power was mostly there I think, but man did I have a lot of early releases. I caught myself a few times getting too much over my toes, failing to do this:



but towards the end of the round, I think I was pretty much just gassed and I was late releasing everything. Then I tried a few times to get a good drive on the finishing hole and pulled everything, trying too hard.

Almost all of my early releases are when I'm rounding too much. If I concentrate (during practice) on pulling the disc in tight to my chest, in a straight line, the discs shoots out and is almost never early released. I think the very nature of rounding, where the disc is out way in front of your chest with at least a foot or more of space (and your arm is straighter than it should be, never getting to a 90 degree bend) can cause you to early release because the disc is off the line, to the left of the line (RHBH) and will shoot off to the left side, often early.

One way to make sure you're not rounding, and that the disc gets pulled into your chest area tight (bent elbow 90 degrees) is to slow down that early part of the throw, from the X step to the initial pull through, just like I mentioned above. When you slow down that part, getting the disc to come into your chest and getting your elbow bent is a lot easier because everything is moving slower.

You can speed things up later when you get the timing right. Right now I'm concentrating on a slower x step and initial pull to make sure I'm doing the fundamentals correctly, just as HUB noted in that video I posted above, and seeing success. Once I get the timing down perfectly and it becomes second nature is when I will add the speed back.

 

[Flashblastx]

Almost all of my early releases are when I'm rounding too much. If I concentrate (during practice) on pulling the disc in tight to my chest, in a straight line, the discs shoots out and is almost never early released. I think the very nature of rounding, where the disc is out way in front of your chest with at least a foot or more of space (and your arm is straighter than it should be, never getting to a 90 degree bend) can cause you to early release because the disc is off the line, to the left of the line (RHBH) and will shoot off to the left side, often early.

One way to make sure you're not rounding, and that the disc gets pulled into your chest area tight (bent elbow 90 degrees) is to slow down that early part of the throw, from the X step to the initial pull through, just like I mentioned above. When you slow down that part, getting the disc to come into your chest and getting your elbow bent is a lot easier because everything is moving slower.

You can speed things up later when you get the timing right. Right now I'm concentrating on a slower x step and initial pull to make sure I'm doing the fundamentals correctly, just as HUB noted in that video I posted above, and seeing success. Once I get the timing down perfectly and it becomes second nature is when I will add the speed back.

I struggled with the arm quite a bit and just recently came the realization that rounding is just your shoulder hinging (think of how your elbow articulates) when the shoulder should be rotating (internally and externally). Any time that you are not rotating the shoulder joint you will round, angles don't really matter in that regard. You can still throw far rounding but it's not getting to the root of the problem which is how the shoulder joint is articulating.

So I disagree with there being any timing issue or anything like that. Your body should all work together correctly if you are performing the door frame drills correctly. Not so much timing as it is a motion pattern issue. Trying to move slowly won't really help that.

I agree that accuracy is definitely a rounding issue but not so much due to speed, some certain angle, or having the disc too far in front and not tight (look at GG or Wiggins). It's more due to movement patterns and articulation of the shoulder. Which if done correctly will get you a huge release angle greater than 90 without you even trying to do it.

Hopefully this helps.

Dan

 

[Melonhusk]

I struggled with the arm quite a bit and just recently came the realization that rounding is just your shoulder hinging (think of how your elbow articulates) when the shoulder should be rotating (internally and externally).

First off, wow, this makes a ton of sense, at least when I do it in slow motion.

Swing/pound a hammer in slow motion with the elbow up and thumb pushing the back of the handle. Hold the disc 90 degrees and fan the air to the target, so all the pressure is loaded against the thumb.

This also made sense in slow motion; it didn't even feel possible to move the hammer in this way without going ER-IR-ER. That's where there was the greatest and easiest range of motion. It was a pretty different story with a disc, though!



There's so much going wrong here, I know. This felt very unnatural to me, and everything from footwork to posture fell apart. I did at least get myself internally rotated in the power pocket somewhat, on some attempts, but when I did I usually didn't get it external again, and the disc just flew straight up. I don't know if I was overdoing it in some way, or if like Richard says in his video I was basically just not holding on long enough?

 

[sidewinder22]

You need to fix your address/start position, you are too turned away with the feet from ground up to your head. Your rear knee leaks past your foot as soon as you start moving back away from target. You need to keep your rear knee leveraged inside the foot to allow the rest of torso/shoulder/arm/disc swing back behind it.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134177

 

[Flashblastx]

I'm glad that makes sense man. The hard part is applying it since you probably have been used to the rounding motion for so long (hinging). I know I have that issue it's easy to revert back to old habits in the field.

Unfortunately when you pick up a disc you go back to your old ways usually.

I definitely see some posture balance issues but as far the arm goes it seems like you may just be pronating/supinating the wrist instead of rotating the shoulder in its socket. Again probably because of old habits and if it feels weird there is probably a core motion pattern issue to address. The only time rotation of the shoulder felt natural to me was when I focused on a lateral movement. Shoulder leads the elbow, elbow leads the arm and disc as a unit.

It looks to me in those throws that you're pushing off the left leg into the plant (you can see if straighten) instead of letting your center of gravity accelerate the weight shift. You can also see this when you push off the right foot in the x-step, you are straight up and down and then compensate by pushing off that left foot when it comes time to shift your weight.. When I started leaning forward off the right foot I started to feel the magic of using gravity to accelerate my shift. While gravity pulls you towards the target you should have your disc pull counterclockwise away from the target.

I don't see the usual embedding for YouTube haha so here's the link:

https://youtu.be/5_tQE0N9RHY

I can't stress the importance of this drill. If you do this and then apply it to the doorframe drill hopefully it starts to add up. When you grab the door frame with your center of gravity shifted towards the target focus on keeping your eyes on the target for as long as possible. The only reason you should look away from the target is because your right shoulder is getting pulled back from you grabbing the door frame.

Really practice these drills until you start to feel the leverage and power. It will feel like you could tear that door frame down (that's what the leverage feels like to me). It's just too easy to go throw in the field and just revert to old habits.

Also helped me to practice the last part of the door frame drill to feel this, but you have to actually move around the door frame. I always just grabbed the door frame and got into my final backswing position which never helped me feel anything.

Hope this helps!

Dan

 

[Melonhusk]

You need to fix your address/start position, you are too turned away with the feet from ground up to your head. Your rear knee leaks past your foot as soon as you start moving back away from target. You need to keep your rear knee leveraged inside the foot to allow the rest of torso/shoulder/arm/disc swing back behind it.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134177

Is that for standstills only? I was trying to be more like Doss

but maybe that only applied to the x step?

I think it's how your shoulder/arm/disc rotates. You are externally rotating/supinating coming into the power pocket, instead of either staying internally rotated or going from external to internal into the power pocket.

...you may just be pronating/supinating the wrist instead of rotating the shoulder in its socket. Again probably because of old habits and if it feels weird there is probably a core motion pattern issue to address. The only time rotation of the shoulder felt natural to me was when I focused on a lateral movement. Shoulder leads the elbow, elbow leads the arm and disc as a unit.

I'm confused by this bit the more I play around with it, because it's starting to seem impossible to me to not be internally rotated while in the power pocket position. From what I can tell from my videos I'm sometimes ER, mostly IR at the top of the backswing, so I see how getting more ER there is something to work on for sure, but then I don't see how I could have my elbow out like this:

while still being externally rotated. Is it possible that I'm just supinating my wrist? I know someone like Eagle or GG gets very pronated as well as IR while in the pocket, but then Drew Gibson (not to compare myself favorably in any way haha, just looking at this one little wrist angle) has that more supinated look:

Does that make any sense? If I'm actually just hugging myself like crazy then that's something to work on, but right now the shoulder rotation at least feels more like what comes naturally.

It looks to me in those throws that you're pushing off the left leg into the plant (you can see if straighten) instead of letting your center of gravity accelerate the weight shift. You can also see this when you push off the right foot in the x-step, you are straight up and down and then compensate by pushing off that left foot when it comes time to shift your weight.. When I started leaning forward off the right foot I started to feel the magic of using gravity to accelerate my shift. While gravity pulls you towards the target you should have your disc pull counterclockwise away from the target.

I don't see the usual embedding for YouTube haha so here's the link:

https://youtu.be/5_tQE0N9RHY

I can't stress the importance of this drill. If you do this and then apply it to the doorframe drill hopefully it starts to add up. When you grab the door frame with your center of gravity shifted towards the target focus on keeping your eyes on the target for as long as possible. The only reason you should look away from the target is because your right shoulder is getting pulled back from you grabbing the door frame.

Yeah, totally agree about the gravity, I just cannot for the life of me commit my weight to move down the teepad. I always get so stuck on my back foot. That is such a great drill, I thought I was getting a handle on it at one point but not anymore.

Curious: the standstills only, in this video, do these look better? I filmed this right after playing with that drill for the first time, and while the x steps were mostly no good I thought I was feeling something with the standstills, they felt a bit "heavier" than usual.



Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, you were getting the rear foot too backwards in standstill and too pigeon toed in x-step. The rear foot angle in x-step should typically be more backwards than standstill, because you are moving faster and have less time to turn.

You keep planting front foot heel first and flat footed/dorsiflexed/retracted foot/ankle/quad dominant position which is not creating much ground force or in the correct way and your hip collapses and flies open without any resistance first.

Need to plant toes first/plantar flexed/ankle extended/calf/glutes engaged and crush the can with the heel/CoG shifting forward from behind. Resist the hip collapsing/turning while landing on toes/instep with the ankle extension/plantar flexion. Then once the heel plants you can stop resisting and rise and release/let go/pivot.

Much easier to work on this fundamental from standstills crushing the can or 3-6" stride or kicking the can, or One Leg Drill.

X-step is just adding moving parts and like trying to hit a moving target.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[Melonhusk]

Well, I'm pretty deep in the weeds with this. My body just hasn't been cooperating, I think partly because the upper body feeling I'm trying to get is so different, but I guess at least I am starting to see a difference there - even if it's not yet translating to good releases. I was mainly just working on the whole external-internal thing; I had hoped to try to crush the can as well but on watching it back I can see I'm still very heel-to-toe on my plant. It seems like I was also maybe extending that left hip again, instead of relaxing it.

 

[sidewinder22]

You never start fully addressed to the target. Your head starts turning back away before you shift back which throws thing out of whack.

1. Stand at address on front leg only(rear tippy toes can be your kickstand) arm extended and eyes on disc/target. You should feel like you could stand like this for a very long time.

2. Start shifting back to rear foot while keeping everything forward addressed to target. Do not look away from target yet.

3. Now turn everything back away while you start shifting forward from behind.

 

[Melonhusk]

Thanks, I'll try this! Definitely seems like I need to reset things a bit.

 

[Melonhusk]

Alright, well today was different at least. I was trying to really get that "tearing down the doorframe" feeling, trying to really get loaded up with my shoulder back. I think that went ok, but from the get go I was having trouble with rounding, and even though I knew that's what was going on I had no idea how to fix it. In slow motion it seems so easy to articulate my shoulder, get my elbow up and out in front, and get a nice swing path, but as soon as I'd go to throw by elbow was getting trapped behind my body, and then opening up early, leading to lots of stuff pulled off to the right and weird whiplash feelings in my elbow.



When I think of someone who really dramatically gets their shoulder loaded I first think of Eagle, so I went to see what it looks like for him. I was surprised to see he actually gets to a fairly narrow shoulder angle at one point:

but whereas my disc would start pivoting out around this point, his would get a little bit of travel forward so that his disc is at center chest:

before it starts pivoting out. What's going on here? I mean, I've been able to get to that position before, but only while doing a lot of other things wrong. Is it all just his shoulder rotation from ER - IR? It seems like I am at least getting some IR as I swing the disc forward, but maybe it's not enough, maybe that's all this is. Either way, I've tried to focus on that ER-IR motion during the swing and it never seems to go right - usually the disc will pop straight up out of my hand. But I'm not sure if when I've tried to get super IR into the power pocket I've maybe just been pronating my wrist - rather than actually changing my shoulder angle?

 

[sidewinder22]

Your shift is all screwy/mushy. Your eyes are alway way ahead of your thumb/disc and not trusting yourself to shift from behind.
Shift back and forth like a skier in slalom or skater. Keep your eyes on your thumb/disc and pay attention to how your swing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

When your front foot leaves the ground in the backswing it starts moving targetward, instead of being pulled back away from target.
Make your backswing drag your front foot away from target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=5m57s

 

[Melonhusk]

Is the feeling sort of like "throwing backwards"? I notice with a lot of further throwers, Eagle for sure, when they plant they're looking basically straight down, and then as they start to come forward their heads actually turn back more, and then forward again as the disc catches up. Is that what you mean by drawing a connection between my head and "trusting myself" to shift from behind? As you can probably tell it's super ingrained in me to look forward as soon as I can when I throw a disc, so I'm not sure how that should feel.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess you can think of it as throwing backwards. I'm not following what you are saying about the head though, just keep your eyes on your thumb without worrying about where the disc ends up. Go slow enough to be able to do that.

I'd like to see you do this backswing just turning back centered starting in a narrower stance, no need to actually throw a disc, just video you doing the motion. You get into such weird stance and kinked up posture starting your backswing restricting your hips/pelvis from turning back. Should feel very weird and different to change this, effortless gliding swivelly pivot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m

Here is where both of our front foot first goes airborne. I'm not trying to lift the front foot, it gets pulled up by the backswing going away from target. You are trying to turn back too late and have too much ground to try and cover in less time.

 

[Melonhusk]

Gotcha, I'll do that! As well as watch all of those videos for guidance, thanks again.

A clarification about what I meant: I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around "head follows the thumb/disc" and "the shoulders turning back the head" - it seems to me like in a lot of pros' backswings their shoulders to turn back their head (and that's advice I've gotten too), and then only as the swing starts to come forward do they keep their eyes on the disc. I struggle to do either of those things! Just trying to get my mental cues in order.