Discing down adventures.

[Mike C]

Think of it this way. When you pick up a guitar for the first time, you won't be pulling off some Eddie Van Halen solos. You have to learn to pick slow before you can pick fast.

Yet many players start out with the fastest discs out there.

 

[dodgeball]

Wow, I'm definitely starting to feel outnumbered now, lol. Lots of great responses though and I'll try to respond to a few...

Correcting OAT is not a simple process. A lot of people have a crap ton of issue with it. Putters are not forgiving in the least... faster discs are more forgiving of form issues and errors.

I think this really gets to the heart of the matter for me. This is just not a huge issue for me. When I first started playing, I would turn over my Shark, my putters, my Leopard. Then I started working more with the putter and Shark, and now I can throw them with confidence (even into the wind) without turning them over. Now my forehand was another matter, lol. I REALLY had to work on that to straighten those shots out, but I think that's due to the fact that forehand is naturally a more torquey throw.

How about this Dodgeball. Join us for the rest of Fall. Disc down till the end of October and start by doing some putter only rounds. Like 3 in a week. Week 2 grab a mid and use it for drives only and the putter for approach/putting. Do this for 2 weeks and then on week 4 grab a fairway driver and see what happens. I'm almost willing to bet money that you'll see a jump in distance, control, and confidence.

Just curious, what are your distances Dodge?

Yep, I've done this, as explained above. I certainly do still throw mids and putters during practice and then of course, during rounds for approaches.

Distances: up to about 200' for mids, 225'-250' for drivers. I'd be happy just to get out to 250' consistently for BH drives. I just really think I'm one of those people who will never be able to hit any real distance throwing backhand, but it's a shot any player needs in their bag.


My initial post on this thread was to ask what was the next part of the discing down technique and I still have that question. Somebody said to just use the same throw for drivers as for mids/putters. Yes, I think there's a lot of carry over, but it seems faster discs need a little different technique. And in general, I would agree that a lot of the faster discs are too fast for most people and they shouldn't throw them. I know it has been said before, but it makes NO sense that only the people with the strongest arms in the first place can throw these things! But most players should get good use out of fairway drivers or even speed 9 or 10 drivers. I just haven't heard much in the way of techniques to throw these things, aside from keeping nose down. FWIW, maybe I should volunteer a few things I've found...but in a later post. Stay tuned opcorn:

 

[dodgeball]

No, I've actually argued the opposite. It's literally the first thing I said when I started replying to you in this microthread.

Ah, my bad, ur absolutely right. I'm glad we agree on something!

 

[dodgeball]

This is a follow up to the other post. So drivers (incl fairways) look different, fly different than mids/putters, so why shouldn't they require a different technique? I've tried different things, but here's a few things I"ve found.

From a standstill, I try to use a long reachback, long follow through, and I'm not consciously going for a big 'snap.' I've tried using just a complete turn away, little reachback and then a snapping as hard as I could, but I kind of hurt my arm doing that. Right where the bicep starts at the crease of the arm. By just doing a long reachback, pulling hard through the middle of the throw, I think u can still get good arm speed, without risking hurting yourself. And when people hurt themselves throwing, it would seem like it would be trying to throw drivers hard.

Then, throwing drivers with a little anny does seem to help, esp in a good tailwind. But I don't see this as nessecarily as OAT. I think if u can control it and be able to repeat it on demand, that it can be a valuable thing!

 

[Mike C]

If you have to throw a driver with anny to keep it flying straight, chances are you're not ready for that disc or you're throwing something too overstable.

You also want to accelerate late in the throw, no matter how far you're throwing and what disc you're throwing. you should be able to snap a disc as hard as you want without injury, so long as you're following through and you're actually snapping the disc, not muscling it. I have days I throw over 200 max power drives and I feel fine, but I used to get a sore arm from a single round back when I tried to muscle firebirds for distance shots.

Also throwing a putter and a driver is the same technique, the aiming is just different. Everything else applies across the board regardless of disc type. With different molds you'll use more or less hyzer depending on stability, but the core throw mechanics remain unchanged.

 

[cfair]

From a standstill, I try to use a long reachback, long follow through, and I'm not consciously going for a big 'snap.' I've tried using just a complete turn away, little reachback and then a snapping as hard as I could, but I kind of hurt my arm doing that. Right where the bicep starts at the crease of the arm. By just doing a long reachback, pulling hard through the middle of the throw, I think u can still get good arm speed, without risking hurting yourself. And when people hurt themselves throwing, it would seem like it would be trying to throw drivers hard.

The reachback is a funny thing. It is really dependent on body type because some people need a little reachback and others need a little more... figuring it out is best experienced through the hammer drill I've found.

Then, throwing drivers with a little anny does seem to help, esp in a good tailwind. But I don't see this as nessecarily as OAT. I think if u can control it and be able to repeat it on demand, that it can be a valuable thing!

This is the issue with big drivers and players who have gotten involved since the orc came out. Probably before. To compensate for our lack of technique and arm speed we learn an anhyzer throw as opposed to a hyzer throw. Hyzer releases facilitating the leverage required to throw +400'. We also tend to add OAT like wrist rolls. I actually use to turn the disc wing up just to hit 280. Now I'm hitting 280 with a putter on a straight line.

Also, why didn't you say you already did a discing down process. We're not suggesting this forever, we're just saying use them at the right place.

As for your question "the next part of discing down" I'm curious what you mean? What next part because throughout the thread it has been explain rather thoroughly. But I'll take a guess here. After you work you putters for a while and feel confident with them (somewhere around 280') then you pick up a mid and try to learn to get it to 320/340ish (as this often requires further improving this form). After that you snag a fairway and give it a while because now you have to learn nose down on top of what you do with putters and mids. I suggest a tweener fairway like a Cyclone or Gazelle. Technohic I believe just started and went with a Ridge, Roc, Gazelle or something like that for a while. I think he has revamped it. But after your confident with the Gazelle or Cyclone grab a Teebird or XL. and so on and so on. In my process thread I'm going through something like this.

 

[BrotherDave]

This is a follow up to the other post. So drivers (incl fairways) look different, fly different than mids/putters, so why shouldn't they require a different technique? I've tried different things, but here's a few things I"ve found.

Mids and drivers aren't really that different in feel, especially faster mids and slow drivers.

Mike nailed the rest of your post, but to further discourage players throwing with an anny release all the time I'll just say that doing so handicaps you by limiting you to only overstable discs. Otherwise, everything stable to understable will fall under an unfounded "flippy" category. And it's a lot harder to notice if you have OAT if you're throwing OS discs.

 

[IronJack]

For the last week or so I've been doing a lot of field work. Definitely seeing an improvement in distance and accuracy. I've been throwing my Wizard and Voodoo a lot, and I'm getting them to 250 and up. The weird thing is that I find that I'm releasing them high, that is, my hand is about eye level upon release of the disc.

The least forgiving disc for me though is my 171 Z Comet. I can be throwing my putters smooth as butter, then I'll try my Comet and it'll wobble like crazy and draw right to about 200 feet. To get a clean flight on the Comet, I've found I have to pretty much eliminate follow through; just a hard stop after the snap. Then it'll do a nice flex to about 250.

Not sure how that all translates to learning the hit, if at all, but I think I'm consistently getting better a little bit at a time with this method. Good enough for me.

 

[craftsman]

Ironjack, try throwing hyzers with that comet. Lean over it a lil. Follow through should happen on 99.9% of your throws. Be sure to follow through on the same plane, so hyzer followthrough should be over the shoulder.

 

[Mike C]

Otherwise, everything stable to understable will fall under an unfounded "flippy" category. And it's a lot harder to notice if you have OAT if you're throwing OS discs.

I've said it before but it's a story I want to keep sharing. You guys have seen my do hyzer drives well past 320' with a putter. That's me now. This is me the summer before last:

Max D: Throw a Firebird, trying to throw it as hard as I could, watch it turn a little then come back. Max D of 300-325. Used this disc for every kind of distance drive I needed, whether it was turning right or left. I knew how to make it turn right, just try to throw it really hard, but left turns were something I didn't know how to intentionally do without powering down so I didn't turn the disc at all.

Fairway: Leopard. Had decent control of it. Should of thrown it instead of the Firebird for distance. Topped out around 250' because "It was flippy and it couldn't take as much power as I can throw a disc with." lol.

Mids: Rocs. Could throw them decent. Not the best control in the world but I could use them on a variety of lines. Really liked Rocs. 225-240' I think.

Putter: Rhyno. Was the perfect driving putter for a torque monkey like me. Threw it around 200'.

During summer, I experimented with Roadrunners, Valks and Destroyers. I was convinced I just needed to find the right disc for me, and then I would kick ass. It was the disc, not me.

Somewhere around the fall, something my friend had told me started to click. "Use the slowest disc you can to reach a given distance." So I started trying that. I was topping out around 330' with Valks and Firebirds at the time. I was convinced the discs I threw sucked and were limiting me, so I made this thread, bought an excalibur, had a few freak 380-415' throws and thought I was the ****. Turns out serious OAT + throwing as hard and flat as you can + overstable distance driver can do that, surprisingly.

I think my first memory of discing down came before this, in early summer. Tried to drive hole 12 short at Arboretum with a KC Pro Aviar, flipped it at about 80'.

That fall I tried discing down. First time it worked for me was hole 9 at Arboretum. Was using Valks at the time (325' right turning hole). Tried a Leopard, and nailed the line once and figured I could do it again. Kept trying it and I found I had better control, so I kept using it. Eventually, and I don't know what gave me the idea, I tried the Roc, and nailed the line, and had better control. Figuring I could do it again, I kept using the Roc and did better at that hole. Knowing what had happened, I tried the Rhyno. Hit the line, but landed about 70-90' short of the pin. Okay, I found my limits.

During that fall I learned to rely on my Roc more and more for driving, and it became my favorite disc because I felt like I could make it do what I wanted. I learned to drive it to 275' or so. Rhynos I was putting up to 240'-250' I believe. I was driving with them more and more too because they were real predictable too, plus I had a bunch of Pro Rhynos getting beat into some pretty straight fliers. I started using a seasoned Pro Rhyno for anhyzer drives even. I also traded for a Teebird, and loved it, finding I could out distance my Firebird with it so I stopped using the Firebird and used the Teebird. Still held on to the Leopard for turnovers but rarely used it, because I had enough OAt to flip Firebirds so who needs a Leopard.

Somewhere around this time I auditioned Wizards because everyone on DGR said they were the ****. First time throwing them, immediate turnover into a roller. Second time, third time, fourth time....same thing. I didn't give up, because I knew it was supposed to be a good disc. So I kept throwing it, trying to keep it straight, while spending time past sun down reading on DGR to try and figure out why I sucked at driving Wizards but I could drive Rhynos like a Pro (Or so I thought). I found out about OAT, and suspected I might have it. Switched back to the Buzz just before winter, because I owned a lot of white KC Pro Rocs and my Buzz was pink FLX, so it worked a lot better in the winter.

Towards late winter / early spring I had become a believer in discing down permanently, and spent many rounds at a small 9 hole course throwing my meager handful of Wizards I owned. Learning to throw the Wizard straight required me to learn a newly discovered skill, the hyzer release! So that's how you make a disc turn left! This would enable me to get so much more distance out of my drives since learning this new technique. The thing I heard that made the whole hyzer release concept click in my mind was someone saying "To throw a hyzer, throw the disc like you're drawing a katana from it's sheath"

I played a lot of rounds with a Buzz and Wizard only, not knowing so much why it would do me good, as much as knowing that the wise people at DGR said people should do it. I posted videos for people to critique, and gained more knowledge from this. I eschewed distance drivers, and from winter to about early summer, my Teebird was my distance driver. I became skilled with it, and learned to throw it further than most people at my local course could throw any disc in their bag. I felt like I was on to something, and kept at it. Rest is history.

The biggest eye-opener to me is looking at this old post I made on DGR, in a thread asking what you drive the holes at your home course with. Discs in italics are what I'd use when carrying my full bag, to give you an idea of how then and now compares. Keep in mind my drives on every given hole go further and are more accurate:

1. Roc, Wizard
2. Roc, Wizard
3. Roadrunner, Wizard
4. Roc, Buzz or Wiz
5. Firebird, Stalker, maybe Orc
6. Eagle, Wizard
7. Excaliber, Wizard, maybe Buzz
8. Excaliber, Orc
9. Roc, Wizard
10. Excaliber, Orc
11. Firebird, Stalker
12. Rhyno, Wizard
13. Rhyno, Wizard or Buzz
14. Firebird, Wizard
15. Rhyno, Wizard
16. Roc or rhyno depending on the wind, Wizard, **** the wind
17. Firebird, Buzz
18. Firebird, Wizard
19. Firebird, Wizard
20. Firebird, Wizard
21. Rhyno, Wizard
22. Roc or rhyno, Wizard
23. Firebird, Wizard
24. Firebird, Wizard or Buzz

Funny thing is even after all that, this summer I got back on to the distance drivers, trying out an OLF, Destroyer, Force, Boss and finally settling on the Orc. Started throwing it on holes I shouldn't, because it felt easier to park the holes with than using slower discs. Recently took out everything but Wizards, and I realize how stupid I've been, that I could of been using much slower discs certain holes. I think I might go all putters every once in a while just to remind myself, slow is good. Slow is control, control is consistency, consistency is good scores.

I'm sorry that ended up being so long, I meant to just type about my love affair with Firebirds but ended up reminiscing about my growth through different discs.

 

[xJFK]

 

[cfair]

awww... hims nostalgic.

My bag use to be
Drivers: most of these hit 310' at best... most of them overstable. I stayed away from understables because of my MASSIVE OAT, weird anhyzer throw, and wrist roll. Not to mention my funky wing up thing....
Star Katana
Champ Boss
Champ and Star Teerex
Champ Wraith
Champ Monarch
Star Valk
Champ Monster
Champ Orc

Fairways: hitting 270 with these... I knew I liked the TL... and still do.
Star TL
Star Leo

Mids: I was lucky if these broke 240'-250' and I only used them on hyzer lines...
Star Roc (what a fool I am)
2 KC Rocs (ma babies)
3 DX Rocs (also babies, especially the pink one...)

Putters: sucked as a putter but loved the grippy stuff. Was more about the disc than about me.
DX Aviar
RPro Aviar with DX Stamp

Now I pack a Ridge and a Comet and drive right next to my friends and their Wraiths. O the silliness of us.

 

[Technohic]

I had a large Lightning bag filled with about 20 different discs last summer when I started playing again. All the discs were old, at least 4 years, some 10 years. I could probably throw 200' and god knows where they were going, and the discs were something like this:

Teebird: Found. Didnt throw
Polaris LS: Flying eye, didnt throw in the past but became my favorite disc for 2 weeks till I lost it
Old mold Beasts: Lost.
Dragon: Lost
Banshees: Still have 1 of 2
Puma: This actually was a smart move for my ability and I loved this disc. Still love it.
XLs
Stingrays: my longest driver
Aviar and Rubber Putter: only for putting. Who throws putters, anyway?

^ Doesnt sound too horribly bad right now, especially if I would have stuck to the Puma, Stingray and Aviar/Rubber putter; but I didnt. You also have to keep in mind, the last disc I bought before last year was the Beast I beleive; and it was the fastest available at the time IIRC. thing is, there was a few drivers that I cant remember all of them, but I would lose one all the time!

Where I got into trouble is when I started back up and I had no idea what all the new discs were, and I bought a Wraith like WTF is this? and I dont think we need to get into the insane disc purchases from there until I finally joined this site.

 

[garublador]

This is a follow up to the other post. So drivers (incl fairways) look different, fly different than mids/putters, so why shouldn't they require a different technique?

Putters do feel a bit different, but trust me, you can use the same technique to throw them, mids and fairway drivers. It's just a matter of aiming. Once you start getting faster you may need to change a bit depending on how much power your generate, but even speed 7 discs (Teebirds, Eagles) can be thrown the same way as putters.

I've tried using just a complete turn away, little reachback and then a snapping as hard as I could, but I kind of hurt my arm doing that.

Something's wrong with that. It doesn't hurt, it's actually easier on you than muscling it.

Right where the bicep starts at the crease of the arm.

That's a symptom of muscling with bad timing

By just doing a long reachback, pulling hard through the middle of the throw, I think u can still get good arm speed, without risking hurting yourself.

That's muscling it without the injury inducing timing element. You need to accelerate late to get snap.

And when people hurt themselves throwing, it would seem like it would be trying to throw drivers hard.

Correct. It's also a very good way to prevent getting snap.

It still sounds like you're thinking of snap as energy generation. While it does produce some, it's much easier to think of it as energy transfer. You can get just as much "snap" with no reach back as you can with a 360 run up, you just don't generate as much energy that way. Have you done the hammer pound drills? It's by far the easiest way I know of to learn the feel for snap. The results have been overwhelmingly positive from others (myself included) that have done it.

You have to relax during almost the entire throw. At first, staying relaxed through the entire throw will help you get the feel for just how late you really need to do anything.

Then, throwing drivers with a little anny does seem to help, esp in a good tailwind. But I don't see this as nessecarily as OAT. I think if u can control it and be able to repeat it on demand, that it can be a valuable thing!

You're right, it isn't necessarily OAT and it's definitely a valuable thing to learn to do.

 

[JuustoMan]

Had to come to write here about my progress...
2 weeks ago i started to throw only my teebirds, firebird, buzzz'es, roc and my pure's. Had done like 6-7 rounds at my local course (21 holes) and for last few days had threwn alot of putters with my friends just playing catch.
yesterday was our local club's weekly competitions and tought that i would throw a destroyer and BOOM! for first throw broke my length record and threw more than 110metres (i know most of you use feets so: 360) and threw a par from a hole that i had never done it before

 

[Technohic]

This is a follow up to the other post. So drivers (incl fairways) look different, fly different than mids/putters, so why shouldn't they require a different technique? I've tried different things, but here's a few things I"ve found.

From a standstill, I try to use a long reachback, long follow through, and I'm not consciously going for a big 'snap.' I've tried using just a complete turn away, little reachback and then a snapping as hard as I could, but I kind of hurt my arm doing that. Right where the bicep starts at the crease of the arm. By just doing a long reachback, pulling hard through the middle of the throw, I think u can still get good arm speed, without risking hurting yourself. And when people hurt themselves throwing, it would seem like it would be trying to throw drivers hard.

Then, throwing drivers with a little anny does seem to help, esp in a good tailwind. But I don't see this as nessecarily as OAT. I think if u can control it and be able to repeat it on demand, that it can be a valuable thing!

What this sounds like to me is something Im guilty of from time to time. It sounds like you are trying to throw "hard" instead of smooth; which can cause some pain on your arm.

Sometimes I got out to the course and I see that basket down there about 400' and I know I cant drive it, but I want to go as far as I possibly can, and the mind says "Throw hard!" Then when I do, I wind up dissapointed in my drive and its real easy to get into the mindset of "Throw harder" and at this point, you might as well be throwing a rock, and discs are not rocks; they are designed to fly.

Thats where the putter work came in handy for me. You want to throw like you would a max distance driver, but you gotta trust the disc to fly with spin and snap, let it catch the air and ride nice and slow down the fairway.

When you go to throw, dont bother worrying about reach back, just do what comes naturally, use your x step if it feels comfortable but when you plant your lead foot going right into the throw take your time pulling your arm to your back side of your chest and then accelerate there even if you have to pause in that position for a second. Get a feel for that and speed up the motion by dropping the pause (dont speed up the pull before you get to your back side) and maintain that rythym.

I hope this makes sense. Punding the hammer and the Beato drills help on this. When I say accelerate, dont do it with your arm alone, you should have your the back of your shoulder facing down the fairway and that should lead. Mostly using the muscles in your fairway facing side.

 

[dodgeball]

The x-step

When you go to throw, dont bother worrying about reach back, just do what comes naturally, use your x step if it feels comfortable but when you plant your lead foot going right into the throw take your time pulling your arm to your back side of your chest and then accelerate there even if you have to pause in that position for a second. Get a feel for that and speed up the motion by dropping the pause (dont speed up the pull before you get to your back side) and maintain that rythym.

Yeah, it's interesting u should bring up the x-step because up until now I wouldn't do an x-step for the most part. I guess I just felt that simpler was better and that throwing from a standstill or with a one-step involved less moving parts. But lately I've been working it in and I think it's maybe what's been missing! How many of u do an x-step when driving? I also checked out a few videos of pros (mainly) and it seems, almost to a one, that they all use it for their drive shots.

After thinking about it a little, I think it's the combination of this forward motion AND the rotational, or snapping, motion toward the end of the throw that gives u the maximum impact. The 'snap' is, I think, really nothing more than rotational force, or torque, and like people keep saying, it's probably the biggest part of the throw. That's why some people can just throw from a standstill and get good distance. But for the majority of throwers, they need that forward motion, or momentum some would call it, also. Before, I was just limiting myself to what I could do with snap alone. There's probably some multiplier effect between the two also, so u need to maximize each motion, without it being to the expense of the other. Anyway, just a thought for the day. And I would be interested in how many of u do use an x-step for driving?

 

[dodgeball]

Putters do feel a bit different, but trust me, you can use the same technique to throw them, mids and fairway drivers. It's just a matter of aiming. Once you start getting faster you may need to change a bit depending on how much power your generate, but even speed 7 discs (Teebirds, Eagles) can be thrown the same way as putters.

Garu, again, I think u r right. I think I was mistaking the different kinds of discs for different kinds of SHOTS. Because there, with either a drive or upshot or a putt, u do need a little different technique.

 

[Technohic]

Well; I am of the thought that the run up adds little in the snap/distance category in itself. Adds a little, but nothing major. I look at the x step more for getting my body rotated and wound, then also for the rythm, which those things combined from a result of an X step can help a lot.

 

[dodgeball]

The reachback is a funny thing. It is really dependent on body type because some people need a little reachback and others need a little more... figuring it out is best experienced through the hammer drill I've found.



This is the issue with big drivers and players who have gotten involved since the orc came out. Probably before. To compensate for our lack of technique and arm speed we learn an anhyzer throw as opposed to a hyzer throw. Hyzer releases facilitating the leverage required to throw +400'. We also tend to add OAT like wrist rolls. I actually use to turn the disc wing up just to hit 280. Now I'm hitting 280 with a putter on a straight line.

Also, why didn't you say you already did a discing down process. We're not suggesting this forever, we're just saying use them at the right place.

As for your question "the next part of discing down" I'm curious what you mean? What next part because throughout the thread it has been explain rather thoroughly. But I'll take a guess here. After you work you putters for a while and feel confident with them (somewhere around 280') then you pick up a mid and try to learn to get it to 320/340ish (as this often requires further improving this form). After that you snag a fairway and give it a while because now you have to learn nose down on top of what you do with putters and mids. I suggest a tweener fairway like a Cyclone or Gazelle. Technohic I believe just started and went with a Ridge, Roc, Gazelle or something like that for a while. I think he has revamped it. But after your confident with the Gazelle or Cyclone grab a Teebird or XL. and so on and so on. In my process thread I'm going through something like this.

In your 'Process' thread it seems like going through the 'discing up' process? I still don't have very many discs to be able to do this, but I'm sure I can learn something by just following along...