Driving the elbow vs keeping the shoulder closed

[Discusted]

I'm confused on this point and was hoping someone could help clear this up. In many clinics and lessons from the great teachers around here you hear about driving the elbow as hard as you can, like you busting down a door or something. When doing this elbow drive motion it seems like to get this motion you need to open the shoulder to push the elbow out with force. This seems to go against the advice of keeping that shoulder closed as late as possible. The shoulder as I understand it should be closed up until the point of release. So the elbow has already hinged out, the arc has happened already, and on follow through the shoulder opens.

So can someone help clarify this point for me? How do you drive and elbow with force without opening the shoulders?

 

[RandyC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLSr9cQv1js&feature=youtu.be

At first open stance and shoulders open too early. Next up is how you drive your elbow with force towards the target.

 

[Bradley Walker]

At full extension the arm is straight and pointing to 10 o'clock and the shoulders are square (90 degrees to the arm) to 10 o'clock.

The disc ejects straight out from the hand from there.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

*snip* When doing this elbow drive motion it seems like to get this motion you need to open the shoulder to push the elbow out with force. This seems to go against the advice of keeping that shoulder closed as late as possible. The shoulder as I understand it should be closed up until the point of release. So the elbow has already hinged out, the arc has happened already, and on follow through the shoulder opens.

So can someone help clarify this point for me? How do you drive and elbow with force without opening the shoulders?

Here is where a lot of folks are either saying the same thing but differently enough that is sounds or can be interpreted as contradictory... or... in some clinics from pros, they are saying what they THINK or FEEL they are doing with probably a bit less studying of their throw than some of the people that may use them as an example.

Shoulder closed is and from what i've read ALWAYS emphasized. Full extension on the arc of the arm is also emphasized. But different ways of explaining it seem to work or not work for various people.

This is where it was easy for me... an so many others it seems... with Bradley coming in and simply saying point your elbow 30 degrees left of the target. I have struggled keeping my shoulder closed and what has resulted as I open my shoulder early in order to throw at the target I have had to abbreviate my arc and extension. I work on extension and I throw the disc way left / grip-locky type throws. Now, when I get the disc to my chest if my elbow is pointing 30 degrees left... my shoulder must be closed... pointing the elbow with my shoulder. So, still drive the elbow and still keep the shoulder closed. They don't contradict, and follow that with a big full extension arc and loose muscles and boom.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I looked at many players at the hit. They are all at full extension at 10 o'clock with their shoulders square (90 degrees to the right arm) at 10 o'clock.

That defines the "shoulders closed" position at release.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Nate Sexton 10 oclock

 

[Bradley Walker]

Ricki Wysocki same 10 o'clock.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Drew Gibson 10 oclock

 

[RFrance]

So at 10 O'clock is the apex of the arc, correct? There should not be a pause of shoulders here. The disc will eject on its own at the apex. The "steely stop" in the old diagrams was really referring to a rigid wrist at the ejection for max effect. Is this right?

 

[Bradley Walker]

One frame earlier.

One frame before that. Low arm is arcing around and appears to point left.

 

[Bradley Walker]

So at 10 O'clock is the apex of the arc, correct? There should not be a pause of shoulders here. The disc will eject on its own at the apex. The "steely stop" in the old diagrams was really referring to a rigid wrist at the ejection for max effect. Is this right?

No pauses at all for anything. Your arm is swinging out from your center as fast as you can spin the center and still reach full extension at 10ock.

You don't have to stop your wrist. If you are at full extension from the center of your rotation at your neck, your wrist will extend due to centrifugal force from the center of your rotation.

Like you take a ball on a string and spin it around your head and the string breaks at 10 oclock.

I bet you cannot do it with a disc at first.

 

[slowplastic]

Keep your elbow/upper arm at the same position, like 120 degrees it feels like. Definitely over 90...it likely gets compressed down to 90ish from the momentum. Let the torso start to open and this begins the arc, then start swinging the arm. That's why all the pro's have the torso start to face forward at the hit and the arm starts to swing, getting full extension at the point in all these pics above.

Don't use the arm before the torso is creating the swing/arc.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Another big thing to look at is the shoulders tracking with the right arm. Both shoulders... The 90 degree angle between the right arm and BOTH shoulders must meet at 10 o'clock. You FACE 10 o'clock. You do not "wave your arm" to 10 o'clock.

I don't think Drew's elbow ever gets to 90 degrees of bend.

 

[Discusted]

I looked at many players at the hit. They are all at full extension at 10 o'clock with their shoulders square (90 degrees to the right arm) at 10 o'clock.

That defines the "shoulders closed" position at release.

I see this too. You can see it in the famous slow motion drive video with McBeth and friends as well. This is why I'm confused about the "Driving the elbow motion". How do you drive that elbow forward and still have a closed shoulder as late as these pros have it?

 

[slowplastic]

I see this too. You can see it in the famous slow motion drive video with McBeth and friends as well. This is why I'm confused about the "Driving the elbow motion". How do you drive that elbow forward and still have a closed shoulder as late as these pros have it?

Yeah this is the thing...you use your torso to turn your elbow. Keep the upper arm wide, use your body weight to really smash down something with your elbow...when people have felt it that's why they say that. But it's extremely misleading as you shouldn't disconnect your arm/shoulder by trying to elbow out to the side.

As the torso starts to open and if the upper arm angle is maintained, the elbow starts to move to the side and this starts the arc, without the shoulder opening yet.

 

[racer93]

I feel my hips turn first, then my shoulders, and lastly my pull through. When I do that (and feel it), the disc comes out of my hand with 15-20mph more than if my timing is off. At first, I thought it was more elbow angle but I'm starting to see what BW is saying. Using this info last weekend, I hit 500 on golf lines several times, and I'm 44. It's all about timing, not physical strength.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I have completely given up on driving the elbow. I drive the extension from a bent arm. The elbow starts out been approximately 90 degrees or slightly less and then is fully uncocked at 10 o'clock and the chest is facing the 10 o'clock position arm straight out in front of you. This is what I call slapping the Midget. The back of your hand reaches 10 o'clock your arm is fully extended and your chest is exactly facing 10 o'clock in perfect sync with your arm. The more you practice this without a disc the more you will see that your chest catching up with your arm at the extension is a big part of the hit. Your legs move your butt and your butt moves your chest and your chest moves your arm and the elbow uncock moves your hand. It is a chain of unfolding levers that all unfold perfectly at the moment that that the disc ejects from your hand at full extension at 10 o'clock

I think it might be best for you to temporarily unlearn everything you ever learned and just work with trying to achieve this position and feel the full extension and the crazy level of acceleration that you can achieve to the point where your fingers will tingle if you do it fast and hard enough without a disk. All of the blood will go to your fingers because of the centrifical force reaches of Pinnacle at full extension as you snap your chest to ten o'clock and all of the levers lineup from the center of your rotation which is your neck through to your right hip joint.

 

[Bradley Walker]

By the way this is exactly what Besto called punching it out. But in his video he did not make a very good explanation of how he drives the punch with his lower body not with his arm but that's exactly what he was describing was the point where the elbow uncocks two full extension exactly the same way as if you were back hand punching somebody. But the backhand punch is to be driven from your feet upward not from your arm backward.

The other side effect that I noticed from punching outward into the full extension is that you will feel your body push backwards so that you will get behind the disc and hit from behind it in the same way that you see ball golfers fall slightly back as they extend the clubhead through the impact area. So that your head instead of passively sitting waiting for your arm to rotate around it as you extend your right arm you will feel your entire body get pushed back and you will feel if anything your spine was set in behind the hit this is completely normal and is what the brace really is. The brace is simply the counterbalance of the body as the disc shoot forward the body will momentarily feel like it's being pushed backwards. This is a good thing you should feel it if you extend violently you will feel your body brace rearward and you will stand on your left toe and Brace on your hip joint. When you short arm throw it's really more like you're just simply rotating over your hip joint where the extension throw feels like you brace against it

 

[Riggs419]

I just got in from the field I am really starting to feel it all come together, the timing of everything working together hip shoulders arm the 10 o'clock release all get more fluent the more I practice. I'm not sure how accurate the udisc distance measure is but I was the throwing my new rivals 250ish I know that's not far but they were consistent and accurate. I just have to keep at it and distance will come .

 

[Frisbee-Hanski]

By the way this is exactly what Besto called punching it out. But in his video he did not make a very good explanation of how he drives the punch with his lower body not with his arm but that's exactly what he was describing was the point where the elbow uncocks two full extension exactly the same way as if you were back hand punching somebody. But the backhand punch is to be driven from your feet upward not from your arm backward.

Thank you, Bradley Walker, for this explanation!