Driving the elbow vs keeping the shoulder closed

[Bradley Walker]

Talk about making jumps I never made, I said you can't learn from YouTube? Hahahaha

Well that would be pretty silly.

The ball golf motion analysis presented here is extremely flawed for ball golf. Maybe it would be best to stay away from the ball golf swing analysis on the disc golf forum.

Some of the ideas presented are not only incorrect, they can cause injury. Especially twisting your hips like Shawn Clemente. Ask me how I know? But I'm just being bristled. Yall carry on...

 

[sidewinder22]

You can already see how Clemente is already TWISTED in his lower body, and his right hip is collapsing behind him forcing his right hip to collapse inwardly to the left. There is NO WEIGHT SHIFT. He is essentially rotating around his left hip joint.

Jack has a MASSIVE weight shift to the OUTSIDE of his right hip. And he shifted to his right side to the point he could stand on one leg at the top of his swing, then then the weight fell onto the lead hip coming down.

Not the same. Not even a little bit. Please stop saying they are the same.

This is the same mistake you made in saying that Clemente is like Hogan too. You are taking the transition or the "kick" frame and comparing them without any lead up to how they got there. Clemente doesn't have a KICK!!! He twists up into the kick position and skips the hip shift altogether.

How does the front heel come off the ground without weight shifting?

Here's the actual data:

 

[sidewinder22]

I didn't say "reverse pivot" (as in the swing-which is the most misunderstood teaching point in golf). It is lower spine reverse pivot. They are two different things.

So much bad golf instruction on the Internet. I was going to write a long response with ten pictures to show you, but I decided there is no way you could tell the difference. So, I will just not waste my time. It is a disc golf forum. With people discussing ball golf that don't even play. Complete waste of time.

Turning into the rear hip is obvious.

What is the difference between reverse pivot and lower spine reverse pivot?

Thanks for deciding, although I think my monkey brain might learn if you can relate it better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz-jmLrT25k#t=3m

Why are you showing Seve here now?

 

[Discusted]

Talk about making jumps I never made, I said you can't learn from YouTube? Hahahaha

Well that would be pretty silly.

The ball golf motion analysis presented here is extremely flawed for ball golf. Maybe it would be best to stay away from the ball golf swing analysis on the disc golf forum.

Some of the ideas presented are not only incorrect, they can cause injury. Especially twisting your hips like Shawn Clemente. Ask me how I know? But I'm just being bristled. Yall carry on...

Can you expand on the bolded? Reason I ask is I tore my SI joint early in my disc golf summer, trying to mimic hips turns like I saw in the Clemente video. In the video he turns back and says now all my weight is on the rear foot, which I found weird since his COG hasn't moved anywhere.... Anyways, I thought I was just doing Clemente wrong when trying it and hurting my SI. Now that I use 1-step to make lateral weight shift and when I turn my hips I make sure one foot is deweighted/ready to turn with it I get no more SI joint type injuries.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some of the ideas presented are not only incorrect, they can cause injury. Especially twisting your hips like Shawn Clemente. Ask me how I know? But I'm just being bristled. Yall carry on...

Shawn Clement is the reason I'm still playing disc golf. I broke my tibia doing Beto right pec drills because it doesn't teach you how to shift your weight correctly - Best Downswing Weightshift fixed that. I thought my recurring back injury ended my playing days - Best Lower Body Backswing fixed that.

I think you misinterpret twisting for swiveling.

 

[sidewinder22]

Can you expand on the bolded? Reason I ask is I tore my SI joint early in my disc golf summer, trying to mimic hips turns like I saw in the Clemente video. In the video he turns back and says now all my weight is on the rear foot, which I found weird since his COG hasn't moved anywhere.... Anyways, I thought I was just doing Clemente wrong when trying it and hurting my SI. Now that I use 1-step to make lateral weight shift and when I turn my hips I make sure one foot is deweighted/ready to turn with it I get no more SI joint type injuries.

 

[Discusted]

Sorry. I just have No idea how a downhill skier who has speed, momentum, and gravity going with him to counter balance his COG being way to the right of his legs has to do with my question. Can you please clarify.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sorry. I just have No idea how a downhill skier who has speed, momentum, and gravity going with him to counter balance his COG being way to the right of his legs has to do with my question. Can you please clarify.

The backswing has momentum. Swinging your arms/club back shifts your CoG and weight to the back foot.

https://mayfieldclinic.com/pe-sijointpain.htm
Sacroiliac joint pain can occur when movement in the pelvis is not the same on both sides.

SC teaches both hips moving/swiveling together and finish balanced on the front leg.

 

[Discusted]

The backswing has momentum. Swinging your arms/club back shifts your CoG and weight to the back foot.

https://mayfieldclinic.com/pe-sijointpain.htm
Sacroiliac joint pain can occur when movement in the pelvis is not the same on both sides.

SC teaches both hips moving/swiveling together and finish balanced on the front leg.

Yeh I heard that he said that. But COG lets say is your belly button (around there is what you said before right?) If that COG location doesn't move left or right relative to his feet and both feet are planted during the swing, (which he seems to show sometimes and sometimes not) how is that weight moving. What it seems like he's saying is that the arms and club IS the weight rather than COG being where the weight is. And he's shifting not his COG but his arms/club weight. The whole first part of that video he's just turning his body with no lateral movement AND his feet are planted and not lifting during these turns. That's kinda what messed me up, I now see that when he actually does a real swing he starts lifting the heels and doing all these natural looking swings that he was not demonstrating with his actual instruction.



In a Disc Golf Drive, you always see COG (belly button) over the rear foot, go to center between feet, and finish over the front foot.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeh I heard that he said that. But COG lets say is your belly button (around there is what you said before right?) If that COG location doesn't move left or right relative to his feet and both feet are planted during the swing, (which he seems to show sometimes and sometimes not) how is that weight moving. What it seems like he's saying is that the arms and club IS the weight rather than COG being where the weight is. And he's shifting not his COG but his arms/club weight. The whole first part of that video he's just turning his body with no lateral movement AND his feet are planted and not lifting during these turns. That's kinda what messed me up, I now see that when he actually does a real swing he starts lifting the heels and doing all these natural looking swings that he was not demonstrating with his actual instruction.



In a Disc Golf Drive, you always see COG (belly button) over the rear foot, go to center between feet, and finish over the front foot.

CoG is dynamic measurement, it moves around and even outside your body depending on your position. Raise your arms overhead and CoG moves from navel to chest. Bend into athletic position and CoG is outside your body. Bring both arms back and CoG is towards rear side of body.

Hard to convey weightshift in some slow demonstrations and holding a static position.

 

[Bradley Walker]

No. It is twisting...

Mike Austin explains the collapsing twisted hip thing pretty well. I have about a half dozen videos of Austin talking about on my Youtube channel. I have tried to discuss this in the past that inward twisting of the hip is NO BUENO!!! Ask me how I know!!! I used to swing with "tilted spiral" and it disintegrated my right hip (18 months of physical therapy later, here I am swinging better than ever NOT DOING THAT).

It is not that difficult a concept. Shawn Clemente is essentially teaching a golf swing where his entire lower body rotates around his lead (left) hip joint, not only for the downswing, but for the BACKSWING TOO. He calls his swing the "tilted spiral". His right side is collapsing inwardly going back and ends up twisted BEHIND his left hip joint which is essentially nearly stationary.

This does work to serve as model for disc golf as we essentially look to throw on one leg, very much like a "tilted spiral" in some ways. The thing is we lift our trailing leg to relieve the twisting in a disc golf throw.

THIS TWISTING AROUND THE FRONT HIP JOINT IS NOT WHAT GOLF PROS DO!!! Golf pros make a very powerful move to their RIGHT hip joint and the entire LEFT SIDE rotates around that right hip joint going back. Then the move is shifted or "the kick" moves the motion to the LEFT hip joint through the impact. The Left hip joint elongates as the front foot tries to leverage against the downward force, and the front foot is launched skyward. Totally different than "compressing" into a "tilted spiral".

 

[Bradley Walker]

In a Disc Golf Drive, you always see COG (belly button) over the rear foot, go to center between feet, and finish over the front foot.

Hey man, GOOD CALL!!! That is EXACTLY the way it works in BALL GOLF (except the head doesn't move or much at all). The belly is essentially swinging under the fixed upper spine like the clank in a bell. To do this, by shifting from leg to leg the hips must sway side to side to elongate the hip joint. (moving the belly)

Going back to the right you create the one leg of the capital "A" as your hip elongates on the right and moves to the right and your left leg bends and shortens. Then you shift to the forward hip and the process repeats on that side.

Watch this. This is how a ball golfer swings. It is not a "tilted spiral".

 

[sidewinder22]

Tilted Spiral #2 weightshift feel vs real: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DMwiBkvrkg&t=3m50s

 

[Discusted]

Hey man, GOOD CALL!!! That is EXACTLY the way it works in BALL GOLF (except the head doesn't move or much at all). The belly is essentially swinging under the fixed upper spine like the clank in a bell. To do this, by shifting from leg to leg the hips must sway side to side to elongate the hip joint. (moving the belly)

Going back to the right you create the one leg of the capital "A" as your hip elongates on the right and moves to the right and your left leg bends and shortens. Then you shift to the forward hip and the process repeats on that side.

Watch this. This is how a ball golfer swings. It is not a "tilted spiral".

Ah, clank in the bell, that's a good analogy. So the clank in the bell swaying is essentially the same thing as the Feldberg hip thrust he talks about right? https://vimeo.com/64171158

I made a thread asking about this hip thrust motion because it's become apparent to me I'm not getting braced or over on the front foot enough and my side seems to swing around and in front of my left side instead of into my left side and behind it. The thread doesn't seem to have much interest so maybe i can ask you guys here some clarifications about that movement in relation to the disc golf swing.

1.Does the hip thrust create a braced position? Bracing and hip thrust... are they the same thing?
2. What is the timing of this hip thrust? Say from reach back in. Does the hip thrust initiate at reachback peak or after crushing the can? When the hip thrust has finished and it's pointing at the sky, is that when the hit starts or is the disc releasing at that point? When crushing the can, do you hip thrust into the can crush?

 

[Bradley Walker]

Yes. That is exactly what Mike Austin taught. Feldberg elongates the muscles on the outside of the hip which creates a post to rotate around. Exactly like Mike Austin taught in that video.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Ah, clank in the bell, that's a good analogy. So the clank in the bell swaying is essentially the same thing as the Feldberg hip thrust he talks about right?

Here you go broseph... haha

Tell me that isn't the same thing

 

[Bradley Walker]

I am working on some things. The Mike Austin golf swing is very much driven by the trailing leg. It changed my life when I stopped caring about the arm holding the club and started driving the swing with my butt muscles. Exactly like Dan Shueger is demonstrating in that drill.

Think about a disc throw that the lead arm does nothing except maintain the arc. The entire throw is driven by the trailing side.

 

[Twistedhorse]

Here is where a lot of folks are either saying the same thing but differently enough that is sounds or can be interpreted as contradictory... or... in some clinics from pros, they are saying what they THINK or FEEL they are doing with probably a bit less studying of their throw than some of the people that may use them as an example.

Shoulder closed is and from what i've read ALWAYS emphasized. Full extension on the arc of the arm is also emphasized. But different ways of explaining it seem to work or not work for various people.

This is where it was easy for me... an so many others it seems... with Bradley coming in and simply saying point your elbow 30 degrees left of the target. I have struggled keeping my shoulder closed and what has resulted as I open my shoulder early in order to throw at the target I have had to abbreviate my arc and extension. I work on extension and I throw the disc way left / grip-locky type throws. Now, when I get the disc to my chest if my elbow is pointing 30 degrees left... my shoulder must be closed... pointing the elbow with my shoulder. So, still drive the elbow and still keep the shoulder closed. They don't contradict, and follow that with a big full extension arc and loose muscles and boom.

do you have a pic of elbow 30 degrees

 

[Twistedhorse]

Ah, clank in the bell, that's a good analogy. So the clank in the bell swaying is essentially the same thing as the Feldberg hip thrust he talks about right? https://vimeo.com/64171158

I made a thread asking about this hip thrust motion because it's become apparent to me I'm not getting braced or over on the front foot enough and my side seems to swing around and in front of my left side instead of into my left side and behind it. The thread doesn't seem to have much interest so maybe i can ask you guys here some clarifications about that movement in relation to the disc golf swing.

1.Does the hip thrust create a braced position? Bracing and hip thrust... are they the same thing?
2. What is the timing of this hip thrust? Say from reach back in. Does the hip thrust initiate at reachback peak or after crushing the can? When the hip thrust has finished and it's pointing at the sky, is that when the hit starts or is the disc releasing at that point? When crushing the can, do you hip thrust into the can crush?

Great video, ill try this