Fair or foul?

[jeverett]

I also think those look more like gold, blue and white tees rather than blue, white and red.

I agree with this. At the blue level, by CR Par standards you can only expect a 340ft. accurate drive from players (i.e. typically not enough to clear the lake), making that tee Gold rather than Blue. I'd also agree with the comments about the tee shot being significantly tougher for lefties/forehands.. at the Gold level, it's reasonable to expect players to have both a backhand and a forehand, but at lower skill levels that's not as valid of an assumption. Definitely look interesting, though.

 

[Steve West]

Data.

 

[jongoff09]

I love the look of the hole. I would play from the Blue and try the long water carry. There is a hole in my area with ~380' lake carry, or bail around the lake for a 460' hole. I'm the only person I know to throw over the lake besides some pros. I think you would find very few to go for the long carry, but those that do would be excited to play it.

In response to the distance argument, throwing further is a skill that should be tested. I wish there were more holes that I could tackle like this.

 

[BionicRib]

1 question

If your "carry" distance is 390 from blue/gold tee and the tee is elevated 10ft. Is it elevated 10ft from the water level or from the safe landing area?

You may want to pull the GIS info to find out how high/low that water can get as well.
If you're elevated 10ft from the tee to the landing zone......then it wouldn't need to carry 390. If the landing zone is level with the tee then I would suggest clearing out a more inviting "bail out" area if possible. As a blue level player 390 is in my wheelhouse, but I'm not going to clear it safely everytime. That being said, if I were playing in a tourney the smarter play may be to just to lay up....take a 5 (don't cry about a 6 if it happens).....and move on. I like the idea of having a better landing zone for that very reason that you have given the player a choice that they will have to live with. See if their pride gets the best of them.

It looks like a beautiful hole in the works.....and I would play it regardless of what you decide to do.

 

[sidewinder22]

beautiful but i think the carry is a bit too long and the trees right next to the water on the landing side make it a distinct possibility that good shots will be punished randomly- the gap isn't big enough to take the random factor out at that distance.

I agree with this, as well as what DavidSauls, and Stan McDaniel have said.

 

[Sadjo]

To answer some questions...the measurement is made using Google Earth tools. I measured to about 20-30 feet beyond the water's edge. The tee is about 10' higher than the water's edge at the front of the tee.

This project is still aways away. The owner came to me to see about doing a pay to play course on his property. He is considering ziplines, disc golf, horseback riding and extreme mountain biking. Disc Golf would be phase one, ziplines phase two.

I'll pull up the full property and outline it and add some more pictures. It really is a dream piece of property.

 

[Grungedude42]

To answer some questions...the measurement is made using Google Earth tools. I measured to about 20-30 feet beyond the water's edge. The tee is about 10' higher than the water's edge at the front of the tee.

This project is still aways away. The owner came to me to see about doing a pay to play course on his property. He is considering ziplines, disc golf, horseback riding and extreme mountain biking. Disc Golf would be phase one, ziplines phase two.

I'll pull up the full property and outline it and add some more pictures. It really is a dream piece of property.

Oh man, put a zip line over that pond, and give someone a floating ultrastar. Add a case or two of beer for flavor, bake at 85 degrees for half a day...

 

[Dave242]

From your screen shot it looks like this is it.

You'll need to get Brian McRee involved in this design

 

[Sadjo]

From your screen shot it looks like this is it.

You'll need to get Brian McRee involved in this design

That is more crisp than what i got from Google Earth. That, however, has McCrackin Road going all the way to the pond. It actually ends right by that last house. Where the house is there's a gate.

I don't know Brian McRee. Very little clearing will need to be done. Most of the wooded areas are clear of underbrush and have old trails and service roads to make transitions easier.

 

[teemkey]

It looks like your pics are in the winter (long tee picture), and I wonder what the shot would look like with the trees in full foliage. Don't know if there'll even be a reasonable flight path.

I'd suggest moving the white (medium) tee north maybe 20 feet and the blue (long) tee 60-80 feet behind the white. This would make the red tee area a more in-line bail out, while keeping the over the lake line risky but rewarding.

Would really like to see the view from the red tee ...

 

[Jimb]

That hole looks ridiculous... and I love it. If I had a HUGE tail-wind, and if there was a boat for disc retrieval, I'd love to give it a whirl with my Wahoo. Now, without a tailwind or boat, I'd have to lay up. And that's OK, especially if it's considered gold level. If the openings could be cleaned up a little, that would probably be OK.

As far as the bailout being tough for a RHFH or LHBH player as some have mentioned, how about a turnover shot? Just saying.

Some other options could include: Create a new Red tee from near the ideal landing area, totally taking the lake out of play. Then move each of the other tees up... Old Red = New White, Old White = New Blue. This might even open up more space for a hole coming back across the lake in the opposite direction.

Looks like you have lots of options. I wish you well with this!

 

[tarel]

if you can't throw 300 over water you should not be on the blue/gold tee pad to begin with.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Might want to review the PDGA design guidelines for water carries for appropriate distances:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGASkillGuides2009.pdf

 

[BionicRib]

If you clear a landing zone out for a bailout......I think you're fine.
IMO and FWIW 265 for gold/blue level players isn't going to phase any of them......at 350ish though you definitely get people thinking about it. I think having the choice of doing one or the other would make the hole great. If a player can clear the 390 and wants to take that risk then they should be rewarded for that. If a player can't carry 390....they shouldn't be punished twice (once for not being able to carry 390 and twice for having nowhere else to land shorter) by a bunch of trees lined up on the side of the water on the left. I understand a lot of people put a lot of thought into the pdga guidlines for water carries.....but 265? Thats just not enough to challege a gold level player

 

[BionicRib]

Any elites out there care to comment?

 

[Cgkdisc]

The carry guidelines are not about the highest level challenge for a skill level but about fairness in a variety of conditions including 30mph wind in your face and the fact that lower level players may be forced to play from those tees at tournament time. As long as there's a bailout area that meets the guidelines, you can have the preferred carry be longer.

 

[DavidSauls]

Might want to review the PDGA design guidelines for water carries for appropriate distances:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGASkillGuides2009.pdf

Those are for forced water throws without a way to go around.

Optional water throws should---in my personal opinion---but of a distance that a player stands in anguish on the tee, trying to decide whether to go for it.

EDIT I was typing at the same time Chuck was, but slower

 

[BionicRib]

The carry guidelines are not about the highest level challenge for a skill level but about fairness in a variety of conditions including 30mph wind in your face and the fact that lower level players may be forced to play from those tees at tournament time. As long as there's a bailout area that meets the guidelines, it doesn't mean you can't have the preferred carry be longer.

So hypothetically if this hole that Sadjo is proposing ended up being played during Worlds Pro/Am. Would tweeks have to be made?

 

[Sadjo]

None of tees require a water carry of over 300'. The shortest distance from the long tee to the pin takes you over the water at about 390'. The option to move the tee more to the left and forward is still there. While I wouldn't clear all the trees on the far side of the water, I can see clearing/cleaning up the farside....giving more of an opportunity to land safely.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not sure if tweaks would be needed. However, there's always the option to provide a drop zone on the other side of the water where players can start the hole throwing their 3rd shot if they do not wish to try throwing over the water. That's how we do it on the Steady Ed course at the IDGC. If your division must play the back blue tees and you don't think you can make the carry on one of the water holes, you can go to the Red tee, all which are all on the other side of the water (per Steady Ed's original design guidelines), and be playing your 3rd shot and not risk losing your disc.