Hips and shoulder timing.

[ash81]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their patience and helping us new guys with understanding the mechanics of a proper throw. This subject has come to my attention as it's something I'm working on, but the information seems to be peppered throughout posts, so just trying to get a comprehensive thread going concerning the timing of hips and shoulders to get that late acceleration and a good, clean burst.

I've been thinking about how to get the shoulders rotating and the elbow out properly. At first I'd use all lower body, but the shoulder angle would close and cause a lazy fling. Other times I'd move my arm into position subconsciously and feel power loss. Then I'd just try to hold my upper arm at a 90° angle with a loose forearm and that helped some, but wasn't quite coming together.

I saw it mentioned in a thread that the experts here would suggest using hips to move the arm into position, but in my mind that would mean having to pause the hip rotation (which was another lightbulb because I kept driving them straight sideways) while the arm moved before continuing the rotation to boost the arm for a late burst.

I poured over the Heavydisc shoulders thread which really helped with the concept some, but it wasn't clicking all the way.
http://www.heavydisc.com/2015/04/dust-your-shoulders-off.html?m=1

Then while reading a recent thread that linked to DGR I noticed an old graphic and explanation that was lost on me at the time. It concerned the closed, neutral, open hip position and the movement if the arm. I'd just like to hear what others think, and maybe the feel of the movement because it looks so smooth when others execute a proper throw that if there is that pause while things move naturally into position, its hard to notice. I'm also going to go back to the SW22 vids because I'm sure it might be referenced there in some way, but can't recall at the moment.

 

[slowplastic]

That diagram looks like shoulders to me, not hips. Hips are really never that far rotated back, you really just feel them loaded internally into the rear hip. Shoulders can turn that far back, especially for someone like Schusterick.

Don't think of any of the "pause" stuff...it leads to jerky throws. Everything feels smooth. Trying to put little bits and pieces together with key words that people have come up with leads to jerky throws that happen in discrete sections 95% of the time for people. If it's not smooth, you're doing it wrong, that's the rule.

Rear hip should move targetward, until it's cleared around the brace and you feel that impact/recoil. Really the best thing I feel for shoulders is to find the power pocket position that you need (stacked stance, disc near right pec/armpit, body overtop of disc), and make sure you get through that point during the throw. If you know how balanced that power pocket is, and what it feels like to be in that position, then from backswing forward you will get into the position again fairly passively with your upper body. If your hips/lower body have been transferring the power correctly you should feel a tugging up the side of your lead torso/hip from the power pocket position that makes you "have" to uncork the throw at the shoulder. That's kind of how it feels for me for approaching this position, and how the hip power feels out of it.

 

[lyleoross]

Your timing is good, pun intended. On the threads page, look for a thread titled Sexton and McBeth Instructional Video. They do an excellent job of explaining timing of the hip turn and how it pulls the arm into position. Tis a very good video in that it tells you what happens if you don't do it that way.

 

[sidewinder22]

I disagree with those diagrams/explanations. HUB's is close, but the angle between the shoulder and upper arm doesn't decrease because of the shoulders opening, it happens because of the weight moving through your body and into the arm/disc. There's no way you can rotate your shoulders fast enough to catch the arm/disc once the elbow has begun extension. It's easy to see GG's hips and shoulders stop, releasing the arm/disc and remain closed through impact:

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think it might decrease on slower shots, and then the off arm coming in tighter will sorta shrink the angle. But I think it's something I was wrong about in terms of shoulders catching up on a power shot.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Rear hip should move targetward, until it's cleared around the brace and you feel that impact/recoil.

Ok, so this knocked something loose for me. I have been trying to drive my leading hip forward and through, which has caused me either to strong arm the throw, or release far to the right, often a combo of both. I just tried driving my rear hip towards the target and had wildly different results.

The momentum from the rear hip swinging/driving forward, forced my torso to follow it, with a nice clean release and noticeably more spin. I really felt similar to a good snapshot in hockey.

This is a fabulous tip.

 

[notroman]

Ok, so this knocked something loose for me. I have been trying to drive my leading hip forward and through, which has caused me either to strong arm the throw, or release far to the right, often a combo of both. I just tried driving my rear hip towards the target and had wildly different results.

The momentum from the rear hip swinging/driving forward, forced my torso to follow it, with a nice clean release and noticeably more spin. I really felt similar to a good snapshot in hockey.

This is a fabulous tip.

You've essentially stumbled on this: https://vimeo.com/64171158

 

[sidewinder22]

I dislike that McBeth hyzer gif, it's a weird looking shot. Here you can see his body/shoulders turn, then stop and release the arm.

 

[ash81]

That diagram looks like shoulders to me, not hips. Hips are really never that far rotated back, you really just feel them loaded internally into the rear hip. Shoulders can turn that far back, especially for someone like Schusterick.

Don't think of any of the "pause" stuff...it leads to jerky throws. Everything feels smooth. Trying to put little bits and pieces together with key words that people have come up with leads to jerky throws that happen in discrete sections 95% of the time for people. If it's not smooth, you're doing it wrong, that's the rule.

Rear hip should move targetward, until it's cleared around the brace and you feel that impact/recoil. Really the best thing I feel for shoulders is to find the power pocket position that you need (stacked stance, disc near right pec/armpit, body overtop of disc), and make sure you get through that point during the throw. If you know how balanced that power pocket is, and what it feels like to be in that position, then from backswing forward you will get into the position again fairly passively with your upper body. If your hips/lower body have been transferring the power correctly you should feel a tugging up the side of your lead torso/hip from the power pocket position that makes you "have" to uncork the throw at the shoulder. That's kind of how it feels for me for approaching this position, and how the hip power feels out of it.

Well, that's where I was getting confused. First, what you're saying is what makes the most sense to me, but I know when there are so many moving parts, you can execute things in different ways but it's not so obvious to the observer. That diagram on the bottom is shoulders yes, but the description of how they get into that position is what intruiged me. I may have not described it very well. I'll see if I can find the link again.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...sid=f1f08e8aa1eba0d5af9ba07241c8c124&start=15

Page 2, post from Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:35 is what got the wheels turning in my head.

 

[slowplastic]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...sid=f1f08e8aa1eba0d5af9ba07241c8c124&start=15

Page 2, post from Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:35 is what got the wheels turning in my head.

I had issues doing too much of that panel 3 in the discussion...I ended up feeling like i was flinging my forearm at the target rather than having my upper body open and ready to uncork the shot, as McBeth does in that gif above. I agree with the feeling that is described for how to guide the arm into the correct position though. I just think that that diagram is a bit of an exaggerated image to help correct/avoid what some refer to as alligator arming the throw (not finding the power pocket and stacking up your levers).

 

[ash81]

I had issues doing too much of that panel 3 in the discussion...I ended up feeling like i was flinging my forearm at the target rather than having my upper body open and ready to uncork the shot, as McBeth does in that gif above. I agree with the feeling that is described for how to guide the arm into the correct position though. I just think that that diagram is a bit of an exaggerated image to help correct/avoid what some refer to as alligator arming the throw (not finding the power pocket and stacking up your levers).

OK, cool. That's what I was curious about. I tried a few different things with some success. I did visualize moving through the neutral hip position slowly while trying to let the momentum move the arm then really pushing ffrom neutral to open. I actually busted a plateau, but that was probably more due to that late acceleration and getting the elbow out further.

 

[ash81]

I disagree with those diagrams/explanations. HUB's is close, but the angle between the shoulder and upper arm doesn't decrease because of the shoulders opening, it happens because of the weight moving through your body and into the arm/disc. There's no way you can rotate your shoulders fast enough to catch the arm/disc once the elbow has begun extension. It's easy to see GG's hips and shoulders stop, releasing the arm/disc and remain closed through impact:

OK, that helps a little too. So, keeping the hips closed and the thigh turned in stops the the lower body, thus transferring the momentum to the upper body and shoulders that keep traveling through the brace? Kinda like propelling forward in a head on collision, but as a pivot?

 

[sidewinder22]

OK, that helps a little too. So, keeping the hips closed and the thigh turned in stops the the lower body, thus transferring the momentum to the upper body and shoulders that keep traveling through the brace? Kinda like propelling forward in a head on collision, but as a pivot?

I think of it as a wave climbing up a wall. The pressure builds against the wall and squeezes up. After the release of the disc/momentum the body pivots or goes airborne.

 

[ash81]

I think of it as a wave climbing up a wall. The pressure builds against the wall and squeezes up. After the release of the disc/momentum the body pivots or goes airborne.

That helps. I realized that all along I have been thinking about it in terms of the hips openening to twist the torso, pulling the arm and disc. I never thought of the hips opening after the disc released. This would definitely change the way I think about the order of the throw.

 

[rickles]

Very good point, maybe a list is in order? As Paul and Nate show in their videos building the throw from the ground up, how should the timing work? One tidbit i've found here on DGCR that helped my timing was not going into reachback/backswing until stepping toward basket with inside foot. Maybe not a full list, but a mental list a person could take to any tee/shot...

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think there's a difference use of the word "open" here. Typically, I have thought of hips opening as the motion of them going from butt towards the target to about 30-40 degrees targetward at the extension of the arm, but holding all your weight.

Watch pmb's animation that sw22 posted above.

Hips open into the brace, not after the disc is released. If you imagine how all your weight is transfered to your plant foot

 

[ash81]

I think there's a difference use of the word "open" here. Typically, I have thought of hips opening as the motion of them going from butt towards the target to about 30-40 degrees targetward at the extension of the arm, but holding all your weight.

Watch pmb's animation that sw22 posted above.

Hips open into the brace, not after the disc is released. If you imagine how all your weight is transfered to your plant foot

Good point. I always think of hips opening as rotating to face the target anywhere beyond the neutral position or in line with the target. Although I think I read in a recent thread that with more force you need to be more closed? Maybe it was referencing the open hips squeezing against the brace? That's one of the feelings I'm trying to achieve. The muscles in my brace leg are sore, so I think I'm on the right track. It's just when I watch video playback, it doesn't look right and my back leg lags behind like a club. It just doesn't look or feel like a tight squeeze and then an uncorking yet.

 

[sidewinder22]

Good point. I always think of hips opening as rotating to face the target anywhere beyond the neutral position or in line with the target. Although I think I read in a recent thread that with more force you need to be more closed? Maybe it was referencing the open hips squeezing against the brace? That's one of the feelings I'm trying to achieve. The muscles in my brace leg are sore, so I think I'm on the right track. It's just when I watch video playback, it doesn't look right and my back leg lags behind like a club. It just doesn't look or feel like a tight squeeze and then an uncorking yet.

The rear leg should be countering the arm swing to the opposite side.

 

[jannne]

I dislike that McBeth hyzer gif, it's a weird looking shot. Here you can see his body/shoulders turn, then stop and release the arm.

I think these were filmed during the final day or the day before. McBeth was having trouble with his back during those days. He said to Page in some SpinTV video while stretching on a floor that he couldn't use his hips the way he normally does and all shots went left for him. Do you think it shows in any way in these shots?

 

[sidewinder22]

I think these were filmed during the final day or the day before. McBeth was having trouble with his back during those days. He said to Page in some SpinTV video while stretching on a floor that he couldn't use his hips the way he normally does and all shots went left for him. Do you think it shows in any way in these shots?

Hard to tell without seeing the legs, but I think he just shortened up his stride.